Omniscience v Determinism

[Dennis1209]

Below is a partial copy of some of my notes pertaining to the subject. It makes sense to me.

1 Samuel 23:1-13 How does God’s foreknowledge, omniscience, predestination and our “free will” work? This explanation by Dr. Michael S. Heiser includes the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

In this account, David appeals to the omniscient God to tell him about the future. In the first instance (23:1–5), David asks God whether he should go to the city of Keilah and whether he’ll successfully defeat the Philistines there. God answers in the affirmative in both cases. David goes to Keilah and indeed defeats the Philistines.

In the second section (23:6–13), David asks the Lord two questions: (1) will his nemesis Saul come to Keilah and threaten the city on account of David’s presence? And (2) will the people of Keilah turn him over to Saul to avoid Saul’s wrath? Again, God answers both questions affirmatively: “He will come down,” and “They will deliver you.”

Neither of these events that God foresaw ever actually happened. Once David hears God’s answers, he and his men leave the city. When Saul discovers this fact (v. 13), he abandons his trip to Keilah. Saul never made it to the city. The men of Keilah never turned David over to Saul.

Why is this significant? This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination. God foreknew what Saul would do and what the people of Keilah would do given a set of circumstances. In other words, God foreknew a possibility—but this foreknowledge did not mandate that the possibility was actually predestined to happen. The events never happened, so by definition they could not have been predestined. And yet the omniscient God did indeed foresee them. Predestination and foreknowledge are separable.

[Diaste]

On 7/11/2021 at 11:22 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Below is a partial copy of some of my notes pertaining to the subject. It makes sense to me.

1 Samuel 23:1-13 How does God’s foreknowledge, omniscience, predestination and our “free will” work? This explanation by Dr. Michael S. Heiser includes the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

In this account, David appeals to the omniscient God to tell him about the future. In the first instance (23:1–5), David asks God whether he should go to the city of Keilah and whether he’ll successfully defeat the Philistines there. God answers in the affirmative in both cases. David goes to Keilah and indeed defeats the Philistines.

In the second section (23:6–13), David asks the Lord two questions: (1) will his nemesis Saul come to Keilah and threaten the city on account of David’s presence? And (2) will the people of Keilah turn him over to Saul to avoid Saul’s wrath? Again, God answers both questions affirmatively: “He will come down,” and “They will deliver you.”

Neither of these events that God foresaw ever actually happened. Once David hears God’s answers, he and his men leave the city. When Saul discovers this fact (v. 13), he abandons his trip to Keilah. Saul never made it to the city. The men of Keilah never turned David over to Saul.

Why is this significant? This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination. God foreknew what Saul would do and what the people of Keilah would do given a set of circumstances. In other words, God foreknew a possibility—but this foreknowledge did not mandate that the possibility was actually predestined to happen. The events never happened, so by definition they could not have been predestined. And yet the omniscient God did indeed foresee them. Predestination and foreknowledge are separable.

Yes. I agree. No problem here. The problem arises with all knowing and determined outcomes. If God is all knowing does He know what we will do and think and say before we do, think or say? And if so is there no free will?

In the case of David did God know how David would act before He told David he would delivered up? Was that choice of David's a predetermined outcome?

It has been my sincere belief that when God says a thing it's not because it's some possible future He sees, or the destiny of all things far off; it's because He has a plan for the future and the outcome He desires and is powerful and acts mightily to make events and people align to His ends. He doesn't see the future, He makes it based on His sole purpose.

In the case of Abimelech and Sarah God both controlled Abimelech and gave Abimelech a choice. That's not determinism as Abimelech had a choice, it is determinism in that Abimelech was in God's control so he not violate Sarah. For at least a bit there Abimelech was choosing as directed by the Most High God.

At least that's how I see it to this point.

 

 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. I agree. No problem here. The problem arises with all knowing and determined outcomes. If God is all knowing does He know what we will do and think and say before we do, think or say? And if so is there no free will?

In the case of David did God know how David would act before He told David he would delivered up? Was that choice of David's a predetermined outcome?

It has been my sincere belief that when God says a thing it's not because it's some possible future He sees, or the destiny of all things far off; it's because He has a plan for the future and the outcome He desires and is powerful and acts mightily to make events and people align to His ends. He doesn't see the future, He makes it based on His sole purpose.

In the case of Abimelech and Sarah God both controlled Abimelech and gave Abimelech a choice. That's not determinism as Abimelech had a choice, it is determinism in that Abimelech was in God's control so he not violate Sarah. For at least a bit there Abimelech was choosing as directed by the Most High God.

At least that's how I see it to this point.

 

 

Naturally all these questions are above my paygrade, and I can only comment on my thoughts and understanding from study. The best way I can explain my thoughts:

The Lord is omniscient, meaning He is infinitely wise and cannot learn anything. He knows every possible choice we can make and the consequences, and the choices and actions we will take and outcomes. Knowing in advance of what someone's choice will be is not predetermination.

Just as when we are born, are we born with the genetics and DNA, predisposed to be murderers, pedophiles, rapists, etc.? A person is not born with diabetes, it develops. 

Did the Lord create humanity and the heavenly host to be robots and yes people? One third of the angels chose, through free will, to rebel. Through free will, we choose to believe, accept, or reject truth and ask for eternal Salvation. Is love, love, if it is forced or predestined or predetermined? 

The way I see it; David was making a decision, because he did not know what to do, and asked God what the consequences would be if he did this or that, and God responded what would happen in that particular scenario if David's free will choice chose that one.

While still speaking of King David, remember David not trusting the Lord and disobeying, and taking a census of his troops? The three serious punishments of David's actions, that the Lord put forth for David's free will to choose from? 

Another personal opinion: I believe that after the fall of Adam, their are many things that occur randomly and by chance in this world. Like what happened to Job, and why a Christian Church, during a Sunday morning service is swept away by a tornado, or a crazed killer enters through the doors as examples. 

At present, Satan is the god of this world. Nothing escapes the Lord's attention, and with Job as our example, Satan cannot hurt a Christian without the Lord's prior approval, and it always plays into the hand of God's plans and purposes. 

Question: Is it predetermined, you got into your car to go get groceries, and on the way you had a serious head on automobile accident. If you had been at that exact spot 30 seconds before, or thirty seconds afterwards, it would not have happened. Is that a random and chance act? Or predisposed and predetermined? Did the Lord know it was going to happen, absolutely. Did a supernatural force act upon this event? Most likely not. Through free will, we chose to do something, at a certain place at a certain time. By random chance and circumstances, that event occurred. 

Just my thinking anyway...

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Naturally all these questions are above my paygrade, and I can only comment on my thoughts and understanding from study. The best way I can explain my thoughts:

The Lord is omniscient, meaning He is infinitely wise and cannot learn anything. He knows every possible choice we can make and the consequences, and the choices and actions we will take and outcomes. Knowing in advance of what someone's choice will be is not predetermination.

Just as when we are born, are we born with the genetics and DNA, predisposed to be murderers, pedophiles, rapists, etc.? A person is not born with diabetes, it develops. 

Did the Lord create humanity and the heavenly host to be robots and yes people? One third of the angels chose, through free will, to rebel. Through free will, we choose to believe, accept, or reject truth and ask for eternal Salvation. Is love, love, if it is forced or predestined or predetermined? 

The way I see it; David was making a decision, because he did not know what to do, and asked God what the consequences would be if he did this or that, and God responded what would happen in that particular scenario if David's free will choice chose that one.

While still speaking of King David, remember David not trusting the Lord and disobeying, and taking a census of his troops? The three serious punishments of David's actions, that the Lord put forth for David's free will to choose from? 

Another personal opinion: I believe that after the fall of Adam, their are many things that occur randomly and by chance in this world. Like what happened to Job, and why a Christian Church, during a Sunday morning service is swept away by a tornado, or a crazed killer enters through the doors as examples. 

At present, Satan is the god of this world. Nothing escapes the Lord's attention, and with Job as our example, Satan cannot hurt a Christian without the Lord's prior approval, and it always plays into the hand of God's plans and purposes. 

Question: Is it predetermined, you got into your car to go get groceries, and on the way you had a serious head on automobile accident. If you had been at that exact spot 30 seconds before, or thirty seconds afterwards, it would not have happened. Is that a random and chance act? Or predisposed and predetermined? Did the Lord know it was going to happen, absolutely. Did a supernatural force act upon this event? Most likely not. Through free will, we chose to do something, at a certain place at a certain time. By random chance and circumstances, that event occurred. 

Just my thinking anyway...

Very interesting. Thank you.

[Riverwalker]

God knows (omniscience) the choices WE will make (freewill)

and while he may set a path before us (predetermination) we still have to walk it

[Alive]

Something for thinking about....every man woman and child--every human ever born, has been given the gift of biological life, the ability to think and reason, to enjoy the creation, to eat, to drink, to love and to see children grow. To look at the creation in wonder. These things-these gifts are shared by all and are marvelous.

Some will go on and enjoy our great hope---eternal life with our God.

Some will not---but all have enjoyed a life.

[David1701]

On 7/13/2021 at 2:27 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Naturally all these questions are above my paygrade, and I can only comment on my thoughts and understanding from study. The best way I can explain my thoughts:

The Lord is omniscient, meaning He is infinitely wise and cannot learn anything. He knows every possible choice we can make and the consequences, and the choices and actions we will take and outcomes. Knowing in advance of what someone's choice will be is not predetermination.

Just as when we are born, are we born with the genetics and DNA, predisposed to be murderers, pedophiles, rapists, etc.? A person is not born with diabetes, it develops. 

Did the Lord create humanity and the heavenly host to be robots and yes people? One third of the angels chose, through free will, to rebel. Through free will, we choose to believe, accept, or reject truth and ask for eternal Salvation. Is love, love, if it is forced or predestined or predetermined? 

The way I see it; David was making a decision, because he did not know what to do, and asked God what the consequences would be if he did this or that, and God responded what would happen in that particular scenario if David's free will choice chose that one.

While still speaking of King David, remember David not trusting the Lord and disobeying, and taking a census of his troops? The three serious punishments of David's actions, that the Lord put forth for David's free will to choose from? 

Another personal opinion: I believe that after the fall of Adam, their are many things that occur randomly and by chance in this world. Like what happened to Job, and why a Christian Church, during a Sunday morning service is swept away by a tornado, or a crazed killer enters through the doors as examples. 

At present, Satan is the god of this world. Nothing escapes the Lord's attention, and with Job as our example, Satan cannot hurt a Christian without the Lord's prior approval, and it always plays into the hand of God's plans and purposes. 

Question: Is it predetermined, you got into your car to go get groceries, and on the way you had a serious head on automobile accident. If you had been at that exact spot 30 seconds before, or thirty seconds afterwards, it would not have happened. Is that a random and chance act? Or predisposed and predetermined? Did the Lord know it was going to happen, absolutely. Did a supernatural force act upon this event? Most likely not. Through free will, we chose to do something, at a certain place at a certain time. By random chance and circumstances, that event occurred. 

Just my thinking anyway...

Rather than go into a long and involved response, I will ask a simple question:

How can you give thanks for all things (N.B. not merely in all circumstances, but FOR all things) if God has not determined them to happen?

Eph. 5:20 (KJV) Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, David1701 said:

Rather than go into a long and involved response, I will ask a simple question:

How can you give thanks for all things (N.B. not merely in all circumstances, but FOR all things) if God has not determined them to happen?

Eph. 5:20 (KJV) Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

I realize everyone thinks, reasons, interprets, understands; thus believes things differently, for numerous reasons. I've mentioned many times I'm not out to change anyone's hermeneutics, but to discuss and compare, as with iron sharpening iron and:

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

With the thousands of interpretations of all of scripture, everyone cannot be right, and I am not claiming I am. But it is my interpretation and worldview, open for forum discussion and: 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

With that disclaimer: Just the fact we are in the flesh, breathing and have mobility is reason enough to give praise and thanks to the Lord. 

As with my previous example with Job; You know the story; God pointed out Job's faithfulness and obedience to the accuser and adversary [ha Satan]. The accuser blasphemed the Lord by questioning God's omniscience. Did God suggest or determine what was going to happen to Job, or did He place a restriction on ha Satan, the accuser?

Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We are to give thanks for whatever good or bad circumstances we find ourselves in. There is randomness, chance and tribulation in this world, by virtue of man's free will and choice. The Lord knows every possible scenario, choice and outcome of decisions made. 

Like my preceding example of an automobile accident; was that preordained by the Lord, supernatural involvement, or an act of free will, making a decision to do something at a particular moment in time and space? 

We have many biblical examples of direct intervention of the Lord calling His people home early, for one reason or another. But those appear to be the exception rather than the rule. 

2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Why is NOW the accepted time for Salvation? Why not enjoy our sins, and reject Jesus and holy living until later on in life. Because we are not guaranteed a next moment here on this earth.

When Adam sinned, death and disease entered the world. Satan [the lord of death] usurped Adam's dominion, and became the temporary god of this planet. Are we predestined or predetermined to die of cancer, heart attack, or by my automobile accident example? Without divine intervention for His reasons and purpose, I do not think so. I think our random actions, decisions and choices, have unintended random consequences [as we view it]. 

All of our days are numbered. The Lord know where, when and how we will leave this flesh tent. Adam & Eve were created immortal, but we lost that. So, for the most part, I suspect our lifespans are governed by freewill; disease; health; choices we make and the consequences of our choices in a random sense. 

It is clear by my example in the book of Job; Satan is a murderer and he can control many things, including the weather. He is a prince and power of the air, and has probably murdered an unknowable population of people throughout the ages. Satan was allowed to murder Job's children and Job's employees; and his murdering continues to this day. 

Satan and his minions are not omnipresent, they can be only at one place at one time, that is randomness; by chance or not. 

Just my present thinking and thoughts to discuss.

[David1701]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I realize everyone thinks, reasons, interprets, understands; thus believes things differently, for numerous reasons. I've mentioned many times I'm not out to change anyone's hermeneutics, but to discuss and compare, as with iron sharpening iron and:

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

With the thousands of interpretations of all of scripture, everyone cannot be right, and I am not claiming I am. But it is my interpretation and worldview, open for forum discussion and: 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

With that disclaimer: Just the fact we are in the flesh, breathing and have mobility is reason enough to give praise and thanks to the Lord. 

As with my previous example with Job; You know the story; God pointed out Job's faithfulness and obedience to the accuser and adversary [ha Satan]. The accuser blasphemed the Lord by questioning God's omniscience. Did God suggest or determine what was going to happen to Job, or did He place a restriction on ha Satan, the accuser?

Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We are to give thanks for whatever good or bad circumstances we find ourselves in. There is randomness, chance and tribulation in this world, by virtue of man's free will and choice. The Lord knows every possible scenario, choice and outcome of decisions made. 

Like my preceding example of an automobile accident; was that preordained by the Lord, supernatural involvement, or an act of free will, making a decision to do something at a particular moment in time and space? 

We have many biblical examples of direct intervention of the Lord calling His people home early, for one reason or another. But those appear to be the exception rather than the rule. 

2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Why is NOW the accepted time for Salvation? Why not enjoy our sins, and reject Jesus and holy living until later on in life. Because we are not guaranteed a next moment here on this earth.

When Adam sinned, death and disease entered the world. Satan [the lord of death] usurped Adam's dominion, and became the temporary god of this planet. Are we predestined or predetermined to die of cancer, heart attack, or by my automobile accident example? Without divine intervention for His reasons and purpose, I do not think so. I think our random actions, decisions and choices, have unintended random consequences [as we view it]. 

All of our days are numbered. The Lord know where, when and how we will leave this flesh tent. Adam & Eve were created immortal, but we lost that. So, for the most part, I suspect our lifespans are governed by freewill; disease; health; choices we make and the consequences of our choices in a random sense. 

It is clear by my example in the book of Job; Satan is a murderer and he can control many things, including the weather. He is a prince and power of the air, and has probably murdered an unknowable population of people throughout the ages. Satan was allowed to murder Job's children and Job's employees; and his murdering continues to this day. 

Satan and his minions are not omnipresent, they can be only at one place at one time, that is randomness; by chance or not. 

Just my present thinking and thoughts to discuss.

Lots of words, but no answer to my question...

I'll use the example you gave, to make the question more specific.

How can you give thanks for a traffic accident, if God did not determine it?

Eph. 5:20 (KJV) Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

N. B. I'm not asking for your opinions about "free will", or "chance" or any such thing.  All I'm asking is how you can thank God for a traffic accident (and we are commanded to give thanks for all things), if you don't even believe that he determined it to happen?

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

How can you give thanks for a traffic accident, if God did not determine it?

Basic question, basic response.

Romans 8:28 (KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Maybe the word "all" is selective?

1 Thessalonians 5:18 (KJV) In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Except my examples.