Omniscience v Determinism

[Alive]

Just now, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own desires and enticed."
James 1:14 and the other passages already given speak of 'free will'.
 

By 'free will' I just mean the ability to choose, not the definition you gave.
It is clear from scripture that we do have a God given ability to choose.
 

 

Its difficult to fully apprehend, but what this OP is attempting to do is find that nexus where choices and determinism meet...or not.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Its difficult to fully apprehend, but what this OP is attempting to do is find that nexus where choices and determinism meet...or not.

Right.

"" God determined to allow His creatures to have their own will. ""

[David1701]

8 minutes ago, Alive said:

Its difficult to fully apprehend, but what this OP is attempting to do is find that nexus where choices and determinism meet...or not.

Yes.  God determines every outcome, without doing violence to the will of man. 

Men choose willingly, according to their nature.  A man whose spirit is sinful, chooses to sin; a man who has been born again, chooses habitually to please God (this is complicated by the fact that a born again person still has his unresurrected flesh, which means that he sometimes acts contrary to his born again spirit, but in agreement with his flesh).

[Alive]

16 minutes ago, Josheb said:

That is not quite correct. The op's stated "nexus" is God's omniscience and determinism. The op does not specify or limit the matter to human volition and the author of this op has gone on record expressing reluctance to make the conversation or discuss unfettered about human volition and especially as that applies soteriologically. Although both have come up an explicit effort to limit that conversation has been stated. The nexus of God's omniscience and determinism is a much, much, much bigger condition than that which occurs with "choice." 

 

And while I confess I may not understand everything, I don't find what I do know and understand very difficult to apprehend. I don't think I am alone or unique because much of what I have apprehended, know, understand/comprehend I learned from others (beginning with God and His written and incarnate word). If they can do it and I can do it then those of us gathered in this op can do it. Might have to take it slow and weed out some common mistakes but that should not be difficult for the sincere and teachable . 

Regarding the OP question or statement...the discussion and its anwers are intimately connected to His Creation of which both fallen and regenerated man are included.

The relevance of omniscience and determinism to mankind and the entire creation and 'choices' are the point. This is why I chose to frame my sentence the way I did.

God is omniscient and He has determined all things that lead to what He desires. Nothing happens that God did not foreknow and determine. What is difficult to apprehend is precisely 'how' human choices mesh. Humans may imagine that they 'fully' apprehend this--but I suggest that is not so.

Nevertheless--the discussion of these kinds of things are interesting to some folks, as is evident by this thread.

:-)

[Desopixi Seilynam]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And I encourage you to use that statement in the future, not the one originally posted,

Josheb, dear one, when I use double quotes "" it is because I am quoting something I already posted, the very first thing I posted in this thread included
"" God determined to allow His creatures to have their own will. ""

Here is the full quote

"" Before creation,
God determined to allow His creatures to have their own will.
[Numbers 15:3, Leviticus 22:21, James 1:14]
Allowing them to make their own choices
would introduce the possibility of sin and death,
but He planned on tackling sin and death Himself through Christ,
that was the wise plan since before anything was made.
[Col 1:15-17 Prov 8:23]  ""

We are not free in the sense that no one controls us,
we are free in the sense that the One who controls us,
allows us to make our own choices from time to time.

-------

To understand omni vs. determined let us compare it to a video game,
for example the game grand theft auto
in which there are non-playable characters (npc) that walk around the streets,
when the player bumps into an npc that npc may say or do various things.

The programmer of the game, while playing the game, may not know
exactly which thing the npc will say/do, because they have programmed it to randomly choose what to say/do when bumped into,
nevertheless the npc can only do what they have been programmed to do,
and so we see the programmer has full control,
but yet has determined the npc to make their own choices.
None of the choices they make will be outside of the knowledge of the programmer,
the programmer knows each and every choice that is possible,
and only choices programmed can be made by the npc,
but due to the nature of the programming,
the npc will really seem to have it's own completely free will,
and will indeed execute one of the choices it's programmed to choose between.

The Programmer.. made it that way on purpose, for Himself to experience.

Another video game analogy,
God is holding the controller and pressing the buttons for us to actually move,
nevertheless He listens to our desires and presses the buttons for where we
want to go, sometimes even when where we want to go is wrong (suicide, etc..)
He is actively giving us our own will, ultimately no atom can do anything without His direct control, He is holding the controller, but in His love He does not force us, but allows us to choose, and lovingly presses the buttons for us to move where we want to.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

abuses of scripture and inconsistencies and contradictions..

That we have a given will is evident in these scriptures:
Numbers 15:3, Leviticus 22:21, James 1:14.

And my use of those scriptures was to back up the notion that
we have a God given will.

You agreed with the statement: 
"" God determined to allow His creatures to have their own will. ""
Those passages came directly after it and back up that statement that you agreed with.
 

"" Before creation,
God determined to allow His creatures to have their own will.
[Numbers 15:3, Leviticus 22:21, James 1:14] ""

I guess you must therefore be disagreeing with the "Before creation"
part of the original post.

Christ was very first, we know that from scripture [Colossians 1:15-17]
and wisdom was very first, the scripture says that too [Proverbs 8:21-24]
To reconcile the two we understand that the wise plan of Christ was first,
therefore we can conclude that our given will is also wrapped up in that plan,
for Christ is all in all, He is the reason we have our own God given will.

I have not abused scripture at all.

It's clear from scripture that we do have our own will and desire,
God has made it so, like a Master programmer.

[Diaste]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:44 AM, Josheb said:

@Diaste I've just realized I have to prepare for work. I'll try to get back to the remaining, lengthier post but I'll be busy today and might not get to it today. In response to the two questions in the post immediately above my 1) God knows everything knowable, and God knows all our choices and their effects (they are, after all, secondary causes ) . They question is did God CAUSE or choices? or in the language of choices as causes..... Did God cause our secondary causes? 

The classic Reformed position is "No, what God ordained from creation did no violence to the human will or the contingency of secondary causes." The world is much more dynamic and interactive than a mere linear cause-and-effect monolith controlled in every detail by a Puppeteer. Any god can make action figures that do only what they are made to do. It takes a big-G GOD to make creatures with real volitional agency and remain a priori sovereign over all that exists. 

Yes. And it would seem autonomy is curtailed, impeded, amended, directed or outright abolished as He requires when He requires, for His purposes with a single exception; to believe Him or not. A choice we are free to make under any and all circumstances at any time we are above ground. 

Now I'm not saying any other exercise of free will is or isn't determined but if and when it is it's to His purpose and ends, not out of caprice but for the goodness of God and His people to accomplish all He has said He would.

[Diaste]

On 7/21/2021 at 12:54 PM, Josheb said:

Care to clarify that?

Are you saying you never said, "God knows all about every aspect of creation"? because that was clearly posted. 

Are you saying you never said, "All of that was decided after the fact of sin"? because I never said you did say that. It was a rhetorical question asked to cover another base for the sake of furthering the conversation. No one implied anything about you. 

 

I don't know. It was 3:43 am I'm not always fully awake till the second cup.

Must have still been half asleep. 

 

[Diaste]

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

Great observation but I will suggest it's a bit of a red herring because nothing necessitates anything for God. I again reiterate the importance of presuppositions because if a big-G omni-attributed God actually exists then He alone is The Necessitator and NOTHING necessitates anything for Him. 

At the prompt of a friend I was looking over Exodus the last couple days.

I found this:

"So God heard their groaning, and He remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God saw the Israelites and took notice." BSB

"Took notice"?? Just then?

"And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them." KJV

"Remembered"?  

God heard...He didn't already know? Then as a result of the hearing God remembered the covenant...cause and effect. This is some of  the evidence that begs the question; Is God reacting to secular changes that impact His preexistent plan? His plan is determined and yet unless there is direct intervention at key moments that plan can suffer setbacks or be in danger of derailment. Not intending conclusive answers to the nature of the what God does or does not do but this is striking to me.

 

 

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

I will also suggest there is a prior concern pertaining to the matter of "the actions of mankind," because one of the actions described in the firt half of Genesis 3 would have occurred in lucifer/satan hadn't already made choices that impacted creation. Angels apparently have a certain volitional agency too! Not the same as humans but choice nonetheless. This is relevant because there is no salvation for the rebellious angels. Salvation is the sole domain, the sole privilege of humanity, not angels - or at least some of humanity . This is another example of God's will, God's plan, God's knowledge and a certain determinism that results. God determined no salvation would be provided for angels. They have the liberty to sin but after having sinned they have subsequent recourse but their pending and inevitable destruction (see Jude 1). Even if a disobedient angel were to repent there is no evidence of any alternative for them. 

That's pretty deterministic. Must grate that guy to no end .

Sure, but my original thoughts which led to the OP were born of a strict determinism the depth of which reaches to every choice where no choices are our own. Many ends are very much determined and the manifestation of those are assured, neither unhindered or delayed. I don't dispute that in any way. 

While this entire interaction has been enlightening I'm no closer to concrete understanding of the depth or scope of the influence omniscience brings to bear regarding what is determined at the level of personal choice. 

It's not every personal choice that is determined just as not every personal choice is free. So it appears a dynamic is the answer, which cannot be quantified.  At this point it appears I see both reaction and strict guidance. The ends are determined and I Am forms all events to the various preexistent determinations.

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

Humans, on the other hand, have a completely different set of conditions and the alternative of life instead of death is solely a consequence of God's already-existing will, plan, foreknowledge and constant action in the creation He created. Jesus was not foreknown as the perfect sacrifice for sinful angels; he sacrifice (as far as we can tell from scripture) is foreknown solely for humans.

It's another discussion but for full disclosure I'm not convinced the sacrifice of Jesus was the foreknown part. Jesus was foreknown but that's clear as He is described as, 'there was not anything made that was not made by Him and by Him all things consist'. I'm pretty sure Peter was referring to eternal sovereignty and His preeminence in all things, and His planned entrance into the world as Lord of lords and King of kings, apart from the consequences of the fall of man. 

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

So satan's disobedience becomes the vehicle of human disobedience and God is neither surprised  nor unprepared for the entrance of sin and death into the world. Before the world was created He'd already foreknown His own Logos who was with Him in the beginning as the prefect sacrifice. As I have already described many believers think Christ's entrance into the world was solely for the purpose of redeeming us from sin, to undo the works of the devil but scripture never sticks and "only" in there! We do that. We do that without evidence or warrant to do so because when the whole of scripture is examined we find there in fact other reasons for His doing so, for His willing, planning, foreknowing - and there is a certain determinism to each. 

I agree. I do. But then there is this:

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

So I Am created knowing it would fall into total depravity and yet felt repentance and grief? There is action and reaction here that is difficult to ignore.

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

Chief among them is the fact flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and Adam and Eve (as far as we know) were made of flesh and blood and were mortal. They were "sown" corruptible and mortal but the goal was to create or raise creatures made in God's image who were incorruptible and immortal. There was a tree of life (Christ) in Eden. Jesus is the only way to the Father (Jn. 14:6). Jesus was foreknown to be so. He is the resurrection. He is THE resurrection. There is no resurrection without death and there is no death without first having life. We can say this all gets messed up in Eden with Adams disobedience but it messes things up for human....

.....NOT God. 

God's not obstructed one bit. His plan is NOT a contingency plan. Christ's entrance into creation all already covers all possible conditions that could might possibly ever get in the way and the idea anything could get in the way of an omni-attributed always-sovereign big-G Creator God is prima facie absurd! 

I agree, the overall plan cannot be changed by any but the Master Planner. That does not abrogate reaction to external stimuli that threatens to delay or even thwart. Clearly God's plan was upended at the flood. It would be evil to make that which is to be destroyed with prior intent of that destruction.

God is not willing that any should perish. Here God's will is thwarted by the will of others.

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

 

Matthew 21:44
"And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

This "rock" was the rock foreknown before the creation of the world. 

We know humans are made in God's image.
We know salvation is the sole privilege of humanity.
We know Jesus is the sole means of salvation.
We know how we are saved: we are saved by grace. 
We know the vehicle of our salvation: we are saved through faith (in Christ and Christ alone).

Sadly many people do not know or understand the purpose of for what we are saved even though scripture plainly states "we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do." 

In advance of what? 

In advance of our salvation? This suggests God decided in the moments before He saved us to assign works for us to do and then saved us for that purpose. "Hey I think I will cook up some works for this guy and then save him to do those works I just invented." I trust the inadequacy of that explanation is understood.

Interesting. God could do just that. The omnipotence of God more that suggests it's a probability even as it would be the norm. But the argument itself would be based on the premise that good works are cooked up like in a short order diner. Goodness emanates from God as the sole source of good so good works have a preexistent standard outside of physical creation. It's not just inadequate.

 

On 7/21/2021 at 1:36 PM, Josheb said:

 

1 Peter 1:20 is NOT a purposeless statement. It is a revelation from God of God about God and God's work in us and the purpose of Christ being foreknown before the creation of the world...... is the works He planned in advance for us to perform following that conversion............................... that conversion from death to life that is found ONLY in Christ Jesus. 

 

He alone is the resurrection and the life and no one can come to the Father but by him. 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. From the beginning the earth was created separate from the earth. In the end the new city of peace in which the Son is the light of the city needing no other lights comes down from heaven to earth.

That guy was foreknown before the creation of the world and He is God! 

 

 

The plan was indeed pre-existent. 

But it was not necessitated by anything occurring after creation. That is the cart before the horse and that idea presuppositionally defies the notion of an omni-attributed Creator Who is not only always everywhere and knows all aspects of His creation, but is also always and everywhere sovereign, even over sin. 

Neither Christ nor salvation nor resurrection is a contingency plan just in case sin might occur. Sin is a spit wad to God . Problem for us, not a problem for the pre-existing and externally existing Creator Who could have spoken the entire creation out of existence just as easily as He spoke it into existence. Humans were always going to die because God made us mortal. It is foreknown. 

It 

is

deterministic. 

 

Well....

 

 

[Diaste]

On 7/21/2021 at 1:50 PM, Josheb said:

Okay. I'll work with this. There are at least two ways to do so. 

The first is a simple construct that has long been understood by all humanity even if they aren't Christian: If God decides you are going to stub your toe on Saturday then every single choice you freely make will somehow conspire to cause you to stub your toe on Saturday...... and God knows that to be factual and true. This is the plot of many a Greek play. Oedipus is foreknown to kill his father and marry his mother but the gods don't force him to do so. God told Abraham his progeny would be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years and then they would be set free and take the wealth of Egypt with them. Not 350 years or 500 years. That means whoever is Pharaoh when that 400 year mark comes down won't have any choice to keep the Jews one fraction of a nanosecond longer than God had already decided. That does not mean God forced or determined any of Pharaoh's constituent choices or actions. Every choice he freely made conspired to bring about God's already-existing will.... and it can't not happen otherwise God does not know what He said He knows. 

This is the exemplar of the conflict. Is the future a place or is it formed in the here and now? Does God see the future as an existing series of events, even preexisting, then relate those events to others? I say it cannot be as then God is beholden to the future and not in control of the future.

If the gods are not the causal influence for Oedipus then they are players and not directors. I Am is THE director.

On 7/21/2021 at 1:50 PM, Josheb said:

Likewise, we see that Moses has very little choice but all the choices he makes conspire to make happen what God had already decided would happen. He was set adrift in the water as God permitted ALL his fellow Hebrew boys killed. He is the ONLY one God preserved and yet his mother freely set him adrift and Pharaoh's daughter freely rescued him and raised him as her own and found his biological mother as his wet-nurse. Pharaoh freely decided to raise the boy in his house and educate him in international politics and pagan AND Hebrew religions and training him in warfare and eventually breaking the man before sending him to exile to be summoned to go back.....

Choices conspiring in and of themselves would show an influence apart from God's direction and formation. That is not possible as again the future would be written reducing, even removing, divine purpose and influence; God would be in bondage to preexisting events of the most mundane.

So then the choices made had to be influenced by the Great Director or there is another powerful god-entity at work. 

To another point it's not stated either way what caused the many decisions that landed Moses at Horeb apart from reactions to behavior as when Moses fled. The midwives believed God. This bolsters my argument about the free will choice to believe God or not as being the one choice we have unencumbered by even God's will.

So then here determinism would be absolute since random choice would not lead Moses from mother to Pharaoh's house to murder to Horeb and back to confront Pharaoh.

On 7/21/2021 at 1:50 PM, Josheb said:

.....at the 400 year mark. 

Moses was a man uniquely prepared by God to do God's will and there would be no other man for that task and Moses was never asked about any of it beforehand. 

There is no conflict between what God ordains and human volitional agency. 

It is not my belief; it is the necessary logical necessity of what scripture states. 

No conflict, I agree. Just how much autonomy is allowed and when is what I would like to understand a bit better.