Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

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Can you provide specific examples?

Well basically every verse on the topic I ever looked at so far. Name any of the main ones and let's see if we can find Jesus in there!

 

 

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Whether or not it "makes sense" or not there are answers to those questions. I didn't ignore your post (that post is neither an explanation nor an answer). It is because of what was posted I am asking the questions I asked. Have you never been asked these questions before? Have you never asked them of scripture yourself? 

The Old Testament prophecies were written to people living in the time of the Old Testament. Those prophecies were spoken or written to them about their future.

 

Actually I see plenty in there about MY future as well!

 

 

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The New Testament record shows many of those prophecies were fulfilled in the New Testament era. For example, all the messianic prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, the anointed one of God (or Messiah). There will be no other Messiah; there will be no more messiahs. Jesus is it. Or so that is the belief of Christians; that is what makes us Christians. All those prophecies have been fulfilled.

All the ones having to do with His first coming, yes of course. Not the ones about His coming rule and return of course. (which is the majority of prophesy if I recall)

 

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According to Acts 2 a certain portion of Joel 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost and according to Act 15 a certain portion of Amos was fulfilled by the taking of the gospel to the Gentiles. Those prophesies have also been fulfilled according to the inspired scriptures of the New Testament. 

One of the most basic precepts or principles to properly understanding scripture is to read scripture as written, with the normal everyday meaning and usage of the words. Another one of the most basic principles is to try to understand the scriptures as the original author intended the scripture to be understood and as his original audience would have understood it. A third most basic and fundamental precept is to NEVER remove a single verse from the larger passage in which it occurs and ALWAYS read any given verse in the contexts of 1) its immediately surrounding text, 2) the specific book in which it is contained, and 3) the Bible as a whole. 

 

You forgot the most important one! We need His Spirit to understand.

 

 

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So I ask, 

 

1. Where, specifically, does scripture say God will bring Israel back in the 20th or 21st century? I assume if this is what you believe there is scriptural reason for doing so. Can you provide me with some examples of scripture saying God will bring Israel back in the 20th or 21st century?

 

Where specifically did anyone mention here that Jesus would come in any particular century? Or are those just random words?

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

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   Pick a random sample of "return of Israel" passages and ask yourself one question: do those passages make mention of the Messiah's coming?  Can you provide me with an example of Israel's return that is not tied to the coming of the Messiah?

2.  
3. Zechariah 9:14
    

   And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
   Zechariah 9:15
    

   The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
   Zechariah 9:16
    

   And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

    

    

    

    

   OK The verses here sure talk about Jesus. Do you not see it?

    

    

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   1. Does modern Israel actually look much like the Israel of the Bible? 
   2. How does the New Testament define "Israel"?  
   3. You say the Bible speaks of the future when prophesying the return of Israel. Future of what? Future of those to whom the prophecy was originally written? Or future to those of us living in the 21st century? Where do any of these prophesies mention the 20th or 21st centuries?

    

 

Who cares what Israel looks like? Point? If you mean does the secular unsaved nation there today resemble the time coming after they get saved and God heals them...that should be obvious. It will be after they receive Jesus the Messiah that Israel becomes what Israel is defined by in the bible. The return to Israel is still future today. That is easy to know since God is not there destroying their enemies, keeping them safe, and all the things that are said about God healing them after they repent and after the vengeance. As for the 20th century business, you made that up, it has no bearing on anything here.

 

 

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One other question for you: Do you subscribe to the eschatology of Premillennial Dispensationalism? That is the belief 1) Israel and the Church are to completely separate, different, and distinct entities, 2) the nation-state of Israel will be brought back into existence, the temple will be rebuilt, and the Law of Moses will be reinstituted,  and 3) the Church will be removed from the earth (raptured away) prior to the tribulation, and 4) Jesus will literally come back to earth to literally live here and rule the entire world from Jerusalem? Is this the eschatology to which you subscribe? When I read your posts should I do so with the understanding that this is your eschatological position? 

Thank you for your patience (and answers )

 

Yes there will be a Rapture. Yes Israel will be saved in the end and God will fulfil His promises to them. Yes Jesus will return to the mountain that He left from, and judge the nations and rule. Now about that law of Moses business, last time I checked we are dead to the law. Why would Israel, after accepting Jesus be bound by it exactly?

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by dad2

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

OK, so then God gathers Israel after the vengeance. I guess you agree that was not in 1948

I agree.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

OK, so then God gathers Israel after the vengeance. I guess you agree that was not in 1948

If God is going to have WRATH upon the people of Israel during the Great and Final Tribulation, Israel has to be an established body full of people.

 

If out of a TOTAL of 14 million Jews today, 9 million+ currently are already in Israel, what is left to gather?

 

The other 5 million have it made in the USA and have no desire to relocate back to their Homeland.

[dad2]

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Great. Will you quote three for me? 

Fantastic. Perhaps I will get to what you "see" after I've read some actual scripture supporting what was earlier stated. Right now I'm asking for the scriptures stating Israel will be restored in the 20th or 21st centuries. There appears to be some difficulty finding such scripture; or perhaps a reluctance to post it. 

Where are those that speak of Israel's restoration at his first coming? You said, "All...." Would you please quote three? 

No, I did NOT forget the need of the Spirit. The principles I listed are those possessing the Spirit apply when endeavoring to understand the word. I have the Spirit. I have the Spirit and have applied those principles to God's word under the guidance of the Spirit. 

The problem is I can't find a single fraction of a bit of evidence for the things I'm reading in your posts so before I start posting I'd like to know where God's word says any of this is future to us here in the 21st century and I seem to be having difficulty getting any specific answers rooting explicitly in scripture. 

Nowhere! 

YOU dad2 are the one saying Israel may be restored in our future. I'm simply asking YOU about YOUR prior statement. 

Don't know why this is proving so difficult. If YOU have scripture then do please post it so everyone can understand where in scripture your views originate. 
 

Yes, I do see the reference to the Messiah in Zech. 9:14-16. I also see in verse 9 the prophet told of their king coming to Jerusalem riding a donkey. I also see mention of "the blood of My covenant," and a reference to the setting the captives free and then in verse 12 it plainly states, "This very day I am declaring that I will restore double to you..." 

Do you not see it? 

Those things clearly happened in the first century during the Messiah's incarnation and Jesus clearly, plainly referenced Zechariah 9:11 when he celebrated his last Passover meal (Mt. 26:28; Lk. 22:20). Do you not see it? I trust the Spirit is testifying to you on the behalf of what is clearly, plainly stated in God's word without any additional interpretation. Everyone knows Luke 4:18 is a reference to Isaiah 61:1 but it also references Zechariah 9:11! Do you not see it? 

The verses you just cited start with the words, "Then the Lord will appear over them....." To what does the "then" refer? According to the verses preceding that "Then" the Lord's appearance will follow the king riding in one a donkey and setting the captives free AND it will occur in that day!!! 

Or at least that is what the prophet Zechariah actually stated. 

I assume you see that plainly stated right there in the ninth chapter since you were the quoting it. Good job. However, that still doesn't answer my original questions. It confirms the prophecy was tied to the first coming of Christ but Zech 9 doesn't say anything about Israel being restored in the 20th or 21st centuries. 

We are discussing the restoration of Israel, yes? 

For the Israel of the Bible prophecies to be restored that Israel will have to look something like the Israel God promised to restore. Modern Israel does not look anything like the Israel of the Bible, except in name. 

Now you have said it will be after the receive Jesus but you have yet to evidence any scripture saying any of this is in our future here in the 21st century. 

I have asked. 
 

dad2, I keep getting asked questions instead of answers. There shouldn't be any attempt to make this about things I have never stated are my position. Especially in avoidance of the questions I have asked. I just wanted to know if you are a Premillennial Dispensationalist, that's all. It would help knowing from whence you come eschatologically...... 

 

.......beginning with scripture. 

 

So.... if you wouldn't mind can you please answer the questions asked: 

 

1. Where, specifically, does scripture say God will bring Israel back in the 20th or 21st century? I assume if this is what you believe there is scriptural reason for doing so. Can you provide me with some examples of scripture saying God will bring Israel back in the 20th or 21st century?
2. Pick a random sample of "return of Israel" passages and ask yourself one question: do those passages make mention of the Messiah's coming?  Can you provide me with an example of Israel's return that is not tied to the coming of the Messiah?
3. Does modern Israel actually look much like the Israel of the Bible? 
4. How does the New Testament define "Israel"?  
5. You say the Bible speaks of the future when prophesying the return of Israel. Future of what? Future of those to whom the prophecy was originally written? Or future to those of us living in the 21st century? Where do any of these prophesies mention the 20th or 21st centuries?

 

Assuming I'll get some answers and won't have to ask a fifth time, 

THANKS! 

Tell you what ask one question and let's see if I can answer it.

[dad2]

57 minutes ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

If God is going to have WRATH upon the people of Israel during the Great and Final Tribulation, Israel has to be an established body full of people.

 

If out of a TOTAL of 14 million Jews today, 9 million+ currently are already in Israel, what is left to gather?

 

The other 5 million have it made in the USA and have no desire to relocate back to their Homeland.

Yes as I mentioned God knew Israel would be a nation in the end. That does not mean He brought them back! He brings them (the saved ones) back after the vengeance. You do get that much?  I am not sure how many will be there when they need to flee right away out of there. But that doesn't matter. What matters is when GOD brings them back.

[dad2]

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

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Where is the scripture stating the restoration of Israel is in OUR future?

We will be around! Where Jesus is there will we be also. If He is ruling the world from Israel in the millennium we will be ruling also! We are quite connected to our brethren the saved nation of Israel. That does not mean we will have to live in the middle east though! We will be in our heavenly home. Now when God fulfils all the promises to Israel, well, that need not involve us in a way that we call that 'our' future. We are around in the future and on this earth ruling. (No one says we need to live on earth to rule here)

 

 

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To word it differently, Where is the scripture stating the restoration of Israel will happen sometime after today, this very day on which you and I are trading posts? 

Unless you think the vengeance of God has already happened, all verses that talk about 'after' that time say it is after today. Simple. I did list some already earlier in the thread.

 

[other one]

I personally think Israel was officially restored in 1967 when they took over Jerusalem and stopped the gentiles from troding it down.

[dad2]

36 minutes ago, Josheb said:

After having asked this question five or six times and still not having received a single bit of scripture I conclude there is no scriptural basis for believing the restoration of Israel is in our future here in the 21st century. 

And, dad2, the vengeance of God has already happened. I recommend you read the commentary on Revelation by David Chilton titled, "Days of vengeance." Unblessedly it is very difficult to find. 

I think reading through my ops on Dispensationalism beginning HERE and followed up....

HERE
HERE 
HERE (especially this one)
HERE 
HERE

and 

HERE. 

....might be of benefit. I'm not saying you have to agree with Chilton (or me) jst that the "days of vengeance have come and gone; they just didn't happen the way modern-day futurists imagine they will happen. Now you seem to have a different take on the future restoration of Israel but I wonder if you know this end times idea the restoration of the geo-political nation-state of biblical Israel is something the Church NEVER held until the early 1800s when the restoration/apocalyptic sects arose. In other words, no mainstream eschatology except Dispensationalism hold Israel relevant any more. None. Look it up. 

If you will notice, there can be no mistaking when the Tribulation/wrath/vengeance is here. All stars and the sun go out, all water turned to blood,half the population of earth dead, a quake that moves every island out of it's place,  angels flying around preaching the gospel to all the world, two witnesses calling fire or whatever they like from heaven,144,000 Jewish witnesses preaching, Israel has to flee when they see the abomination of desolation, all people in the world have to receive a mark to buy or sell, the AntiChrist revealed and doing wonders, etc etc. It is not a sane proposition to pretend it already happened, sorry. It is worse than ridiculous.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, other one said:

I personally think Israel was officially restored in 1967 when they took over Jerusalem and stopped the gentiles from troding it down.

No gentiles in Jerusalem today? Or do they simply not 'trod' any longer?

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, other one said:

I personally think Israel was officially restored in 1967 when they took over Jerusalem and stopped the gentiles from troding it down.

I firmly believe this and hinted at earlier in response to the Thread Op.

 

The Prophecy was solely about Jerusalem, not the State of Israel, and still in 1948 Israel became a recognized State on a worldwide scale.