Famine

[luigi]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I completely agree. 

Yes, it did. Everything mentioned in Matthew 24 can be found occurring either letter in the New Testament (Acts and the epistolary) or the histories of that era. 

 

However, we are getting away from the current point of discussion: do you believe the scriptures as written? or do you follow one of the later extra-biblical ways of interpreting scripture that ignores what is plainly stated? 

 

I completely agree with you that context is important; critically important. As I told you the Olivet Discourse is a small portion of a much longer narrative. If you haven't considered the Olivet Discourse within its larger narrative then it is you luigi, not me, who has ignored the context of the Discourse. Jesus' comments were a direct response to a specific specified question the disciples asked and it was me, not you, who noted that context. When you now bring up context after six pages in your own op all you've done is highlight your own neglect so have some appreciation for the patience and grace that have been extended to you these six pages when you have refused to answer even the simplest of question until asked again and again. It was I who first broached the context of the temple's destruction and the new one found in Christ. All this has been provided for conversation in prior posts and you have ignored it all, luigi. 

The original writings of scripture did not come with chapter and verse numbers. The passage we are discussing, the Olivet Discourse, is just a small part of a much larger narrative that provides several - not just one - context. The overarching context is Jesus as the Pascal lamb. He has come to Jerusalem where it will please the Father to crush His Son, His Son who was foreknown before the creation of the world to be the perfect blemish-free sacrifice ALL of history is coming to bear down upon one moment in time when the Son is killed. 

And then resurrected. 

And the entire creation changed. 

The age was ending. Something new was beginning. 

Within that context we also have the judgment of the Jewish leaders and their hypocrisy and legalism, the end of the old way of doing things, and the destruction of the temple for the occurrence of a new one to replace it. Jesus was asked a single, specific, three-part question: 

When will these things happen?
What will be the sign of your coming? 
What will be the sign of the end of the age? 

That is the immediate context of Jesus' answer. He was NOT talking about the 21st century. He was answering a question the disciples asked AND they asked that question because of things he'd said earlier that day and throughout his entire ministry. They asked that question because they expected those things to happen in their lives. And they did. 

 

1 Corinthians 10:11
"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
 

I don't know how it can get any plainer for anyone. Paul quite clearly, directly, explicitly stated the ends of the ages had come, and it had come upon them. The answers Jesus gave in Matthew 24 were explicitly couched in what the disciples to whom he was speaking would themselves see, hear, and experience. This is demonstrably the case and I have provided the texts the prove that matter ans I did so without adding anything to the Word. Now I show you where Paul explicitly states the ends of the ages had come in the first century AND had come upon them. 

What will be the sign of the end of the age? Whatever it was.... by the time Paul wrote the Corinthians in the mid- to late 50s it had come upon them.

 

That is what the Word states.

 

1 Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Did the end of the current world order under Satan come to an end when the Exodus Jews fell in the desert? No, it did not. Nor did the Lord return when those who fell and their lives in the world ended. Without the Lords return, and all the other criteria in the Olivet discourse being fulfilled; the generation who witness those events and are around when the Lord returns, did not transpire in the first century.

[luigi]

7 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yes, he has commenced his reign. He has been enthroned on his Father's throne as his Father's right hand and he will remain there until his Father defeats all his enemies. 

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 

On the night of his trial, soon after the Olivet Discourse, Jesus looked his judges right in the face and told them he was the Son of God and "Hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power..." (Mt. 26:64). Mark reported Jesus speaking to the disciples and after he was done speaking to them "he was received up into heaven where he sat down at the right hand of God" (Mk. 16:19).  Christ, having offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,  waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet (Heb. 10:11-16).

Acts 2:29-36 ESV
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,  he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.  This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.  Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand,  until I make your enemies your footstool.' ’  Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

When God oathed an endless throne to David..... He was speaking of the resurrection! Read the text I just quoted. It plainly states David was speaking of the resurrection of the Christ. 

1 Corinthians 15:20-27
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.  For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming,  then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For He has put all things in subjection under his feet."

Ephesians 1:18-23
"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,  and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.  And He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,  which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."

ALL things have ALL already been put into subjection to Jesus.

Jesus reigns even over death. He reigns even over sin! He has sovereignly abrogated ALL prior covenants and established his own, a new one built upon his own shed blood. How on earth can anyone possibly say he has not commenced his reign?  

This is the crux of Christianity!!! Even death has been defeated! Praise God! Consider what an insult it is to God and His Son to hear Christians say Jesus has not commenced to reign. HE IS THE ETERNAL SON OF GOD!!!!!!! There has NEVER been a point in the entirety of Christianity when the Son has not reigned. It is a bad theology that teaches Jesus does not reign. 

 

 

 

So here to we see that you don't actually believe in God's word as written but instead believe in a 19th century apocalyptic interpretation of God's word; an interpretation that ignores or neglects what is plainly stated in favor of additions - interpretive additions. You think the Olivet Discourse is about the 21st century when there is nothing in that text even remotely implying a time 20 centuries in the future. The personal pronouns are completely ignored. The near demonstrative nature of "this generation" is ignored. The context of Calvary, the entrance into Jerusalem, the pending judgment and destruction of the temple and its replace by Christ, the specific question asked, the ends of the age, and not even Christ's own reign having commenced are ignored and denied......

....in spite of the fact scripture plainly states otherwise. 

 

 

This is why many posts ago I asked if you had any familiarity with the other much more historical end times views long held by the Church. The views posted in support of this op are all a product of a 19th century eschatology, not a plain reading of God's word as written. 

 

For the Lord to have commenced to reign as indicated in Revelation 11:15, the beast would then have had to have come, killed the two witnesses, and the Lord would then have commenced destroying those who have been destroying the world due to their love for the things their hands produce. You keep omitting the criteria in the Word, while bringing up your perspectives that contradict these criteria.

[luigi]

7 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You're getting off-topic and practicing copy-and-paste eisegesis. Stick to the Olivet Discourse. 

 

The problem with your attempts to appeal to Revelation 8 is that nothing in that entire chapter remotely mentions the 21st century. The fact of scripture is this:  the book of Revelation opens AND closes with direct plain statements the events described in that vision were going to happen quickly because the time was then at hand or near. The word "near" means near. God NEVER uses the word "near" to mean anything other than what it ordinarily means in normal usage. "Near" means near. "Near" does NOT mean "twenty centuries from now". Daniel was told to seal the prophesies because the time was not yet then at hand but John was told to leave the prophesies unsealed because the time was at hand. 

 

So, once again, we find that upon closer examination you are not actually believing in God's word as written and what it plainly states, but instead believe in a 19th century interpretation of these texts that adds to and subtracts from God's word. 

 

Just read it as written. 

 

 

.

You brought up 1 Corinthians 10:11 to support your perspective that the end of the world did come, when the context in reference is to the sinners who died in the desert during the Exodus. I therefore replied posting 1 Corinthians 10:8 showing the context of what the end of their world indicated. So who is off topic, or better said, off context?

[luigi]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Nope. Not a word of that is true. Everything in the book of Revelation occurs within the context of Christ crucified and resurrected, ascended AND enthroned. Even the "beast" exists within that context. Jesus is the Logos of God who was with God in the beginning who IS God and there has NEVER been a time when Jesus was not King of all kings and Lord of all Lords. 

Revelation 1:4-5
"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,  and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth...." 

Before the vision was ever revealed to John Jesus was the ruler of the kings of the earth. 

That is what is stated.

 

Read my op on the ways dispensationalism (modern-futurism) corrupts core Christian doctrine because what you've just posted is a bad Christology. You can also try HERE if you'd like other source material.

 

The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD. After John sends letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3, the Lord then calls John to heaven to show him things which must be thereafter (Revelation 4:1). All data in Revelation chapters 4 through 22 are for things in the thereafter, after 95 AD. So if you wish to look at Revelation as some sort of historical storytelling and not prophesy, that's up to you. I, however, will take the Word for what it states, that Revelation is prophesy for events after 95 AD, during the end times.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[luigi]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No it wasn't. That's an old school view based on opinions reinforced by the Albert Schweitzer and other liberal theologians. You should pick up a copy of the book, "Before Jerusalem Fell" and read it because Ken Gentry does a very thorough examination of the evidence to prove the early date (prior to 70 AD). 

 

Why is there  no mention anywhere in the New Testament that Jerusalem had already been destroyed if it was written in 95 AD? Why no mention of the deaths of the apostles, especially the deaths of Peter and Paul. Why is there no mention of those events? 

 

Because Revelation was written before 70 AD and the fall of the city of peace.

So basically, what you are saying to me is that you don't believe Revelation is prophesy. We then have nothing further to discuss, as I acknowledge Revelation as Gods Word of prophesy.

[nagzie harb]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:05 PM, Josheb said:

That is not correct. Jesus tells the disciples in attendance to watch for the signs. Jesus is not at that time speaking to some unidentified group of people living one century, five centuries, or twenty centuries later. He is speaking to the disciples telling them to watch for the signs. 

When? 

One year?
Two years?
Five years?
Ten?
Twenty?

Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

We are to live by every word. The Olivet discourse is also paralleled with the 4 horseman in the book of Revelation from Jesus again. We don't know the exact hour but we can know the signs of His coming.

[steve morrow]

UNIDENTIFIED  GROUP  ??

ROMANS 2:11  for there is no respect of persons with  GOD

COLOSSIANS 3:25  but he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done and there is no respect of persons 

JAMES 2:9  but if you have respect to persons you commit sin and are convinced of the law as transgressors 

ACTS 20:29  for I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock 

--20:30--  also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them

 

A  FAMINE / PROPHESIED 

AMOS 8:11  behold the days come saith  THE  LORD  GOD  that I will send --a famine-- in the land not a famine of bread nor a thirst for water but of hearing the words of  THE  LORD

 

2 TIMOTHY 4:3  for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after ---their own lusts--- shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears 

--4:4-- and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables 

PSALM 10:3  for the wicked boasteth of his hearts desire and blesseth the covetous whom  THE  LORD  abhorreth 

               **************************************

*******PSALM 119:36 incline mine heart unto thy testimonies and not to covetousness******* 

--119:37-- turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity and quicken thou me in thy way 

--119:38-- stablish thy word unto thy servant who is devoted to thy fear 

--119:39-- turn away my reproach which I fear for thy judgements are good 

--119:140-- behold I have longed after thy precepts quicken me in thy righteousness 

               **************************************

2 TIMOTHY 3:1  this know also that in the last days perilous times shall come 

--3:2-- for men ---shall be lovers of their own selves --covetous---boasters proud blasphemers disobedient to parents unthankful unholy 

--3:3-- without natural affection trucebreakers false accusers incontinent fierce ---despisers of those that are good---

--3:4-- traitors heady highminded lovers of pleasures ---more than lovers of  GOD---

--3:5-- having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof  ---from such turn away---

--3:6-- for of this sort are they which creep into houses and lead ---silly women laded with sins--- led away with diverse lusts 

--3:7-- ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth 

 

PSALM 17:1  a prayer of david hear the right  O  LORD  attend unto my cry give ear to my prayer that goeth ---not out of feigned lips---

--17:4-- concerning the works of men by the word of ---THY  LIPS--- I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer 

--17:5-- hold up my goings in thy paths that my footsteps slip not 

 

2 PETER 2:2  and many shall follow their prnicious ways by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of 

--2:3-- and through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you whose judgement now of a long time lingereth not and their damnation slumbereth not 

--2:4-- for if  GOD spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgement 

--2:5-- and spared not the old world but saved noah the eighth person a preacher of righteousness bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly

--2:6-- and turning the cities of sodom and gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly 

 

JUDE 1:14  and enoch also the seventh from adam prophesied of these saying behold  THE  LORD  cometh with ten thousands of  HIS  saints

--1:15--to execute judgement upon all and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed and of ---all their ungodly speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against  HIM

--1:16-- these are murmurers complainers walking after their own lusts and their mouth speaketh great swelling words ---having mens persons in admiration--- because of advantage 

 

PROVERBS 19:28  an ungodly witness scorneth judgement and the mouth of the wicked devoureth iniquity 

PSALM 1:5   therefore the ungodly shall ---not stand in the day of judgement---nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous 

--1:6-- for  THE  LORD  knoweth the way of the righteous but the way of the ungodly shall perish 

1 PETER 4:18  and if the righteous scarcely be saved where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear

2 JOHN 1:9 whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of  CHRIST  ---HATH  NOT  GOD--- he that abideth in the doctrine of  CHRIST  ---he hath both the father and the son---

--1:10-- if there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him  GOD  speed 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:05 PM, Josheb said:

That is not correct. Jesus tells the disciples in attendance to watch for the signs. Jesus is not at that time speaking to some unidentified group of people living one century,

"And what I say unto you I say unto all, watch."  Mark 13:37

"If you will not watch I will come unto you as a thief..." Rev 3:3

 

-------

Christ died and rose from the dead.
Ascended up to heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
And tool the book that was in the right hand of God.
Revelation 5.

When He opened the first seal a white horse went
out conquering and to conquer.
That horse represents the time period from the death and resurrection of Christ [the conquest of death]
to around the end of the Napoleon era [the conquest and formation of the worlds nations as they are now]

When He opened the second seal a red horse went out
to take peace from the earth and that they should kill
one another. The red horse represents the time period
from around the end of the Napoleon era to around
the end of the cold war.
Hitler was the climax of the red horse period of time.

When He opened the third seal a voice said...
a loaf of bread for a days wages [about 50 bucks]
and three loaves of wheat bread for a days wages
but keep the oil and the wine affordable.

We are headed into the climax of the black horse
time period now.

Simply Watch. 
 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Desopixi Seilynam

[BibleStudent100]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:55 PM, missmuffet said:

Time to stock up on some long shelf life foods like rice, oats and oatmeal, and whole grain wheat kernels while they're still available. These bad times are coming upon the whole world, most of whom will be taken by complete surprise when it commences. Take heed while you can.

I'd like to ask a few questions that are not so much on the Bible, but just on some practical steps I can take on long-term food storage:

Can anyone recommend a quality business from which to buy pre-packaged food stuffs?

Is just buying oats, beans, rice in bulk and then placing them in sealed buckets a better idea?  Or combination of both?

When I buy the beans/rice etc., do I remove the contents from the original plastic bags?

 

Tx!

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, BibleStudent100 said:

I'd like to ask a few questions that are not so much on the Bible, but just on some practical steps I can take on long-term food storage:

Can anyone recommend a quality business from which to buy pre-packaged food stuffs?

Is just buying oats, beans, rice in bulk and then placing them in sealed buckets a better idea?  Or combination of both?

When I buy the beans/rice etc., do I remove the contents from the original plastic bags?

 

Tx!

I did not post that.