Slaves to righteousness…..

[Cntrysner]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Because I said much, much, much more than that the quote mining is not a fair representation of my replies to this op. 

The most salient point is that it is not the teaching that changes anything. Paul does not say any such thing. He does say his readers have been entrusted with a teaching. He does not say the teaching comes from the heart. He says obedience comes from the heart. HUGE difference! 

Obedience from the heart. 
Teaching from the heart. 

Not the same two statements. One is found clearly stated in Romans 6:17-18; the other is not. The first is an accurate reflection of what is actually stated in the scripture; the second is not. 

That's it. 

 

 

Now there's another concern I haven't yet broached and that is: Paul is expressing gratitude and commending their growth. He is noting he his thanks. The basis of his thanks, his appreciation, his gratitude, is their "obedience from the heart." This obedience began "though you were slaves to sin." He entrusted a teaching to them and their heart-based obedience is evidenced by their becoming slaves of righteousness "after being freed from sin." 

In other words, Paul is not making a specific doctrinal statement; he's expressing his personal sense of gratitude ad telling them why he's thankful. 

Yes, there is soteriologically relevant content in there but that's not specifically his purpose behind his expression of thanks. He stops in the middle of his narrative to express that thanks and that's why it appears a doctrinal exposition is being asserted in those two verses (and the handful that follow. After expressing his thanks to God and valuing their accomplishment he moves back in to the doctrinal content. Remember that he is writing as a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. The entire passage is about post-conversion conditions. Later Paul will return to some before-and-after content. 

Are you saying that obedience is required before being a slave to righteousness (regenerated)?  

[Cntrysner]

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, just the opposite.

Has the text of Romans 6 been read?

Were my early posts replying directly to the op read?

 

 

.

If obedience is not required for regeneration, briefly what is required?  

[Cntrysner]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I don't know. You will have to ask someone who thinks that way. I believe regeneration begets obedience, not the other way around. I obey because I am regenerate, not to become regenerate. And I do so out of joyous service and not compulsory compliance. 

  

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: ¹⁸The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, ¹⁹And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, ²⁰Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, ²¹Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

Our understanding must be enlightened to know His calling, how do you see the process of enlightenment to bring us to slaves of righteousness? 

[Cntrysner]

50 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Relevance?

I do appreciate your responsiveness.

For you to help me and other viewers comprehend your understanding of the process to becoming a slave to righteousness (regenerate). 

[Sower]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Okay. Help me understand more accurately. 

I stand by that my statement. 

So..... if I understand that correctly, the believer bearing fruit is done via God working in our life to produce that fruit and it is not we ourselves doing the work in the flesh. Nor is it a "teaching" that bears the fruit. Neither is it our understanding of a teaching that bears the fruit. Any view that asserts the person, and not God, bears the fruit is a false dichotomy. 

Yes?

No...

I believe Josheb that my replies would have been sufficient for you to determine my stand on this subject. But to reply to your summary concerning specifically bearing fruit, It Is by Believers abiding in Christ allowing not I but Christ to work through me abiding to bear the fruit He produces.

In your reply above you said;

" Any view that a asserts the person, and not God, bears the fruit is a false dichotomy.

I disagree.

John 15, 5

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing"

I have done a small amount of research looking for any Scripture that specifically says Jesus bears fruit. I could not find any, not saying that it doesn't exist. Perhaps you could enlighten me to some. My understanding is that Jesus produces/ supplies the fruit through the Vine, himself, to the branch, abiding believers, that ultimately bears his...fruit. I can only surmise there has to be some miscommunication here.

Do I understand you correctly when you make the statement "Believers abiding in Christ bear fruit" is a false dichotomy, as you posted above. I had to look up the phrase false dichotomy, and though I think I understand it, it seems there could be more than one explanation for something. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what you think or believe when you read John 15, 5.

I feel Josheb you're going to lower the boom on me when the word bear and the word produce are sometimes used from the same Greek word such as when describing the good tree produces good fruit. I am in no way suggesting that a Believer abiding in Christ  can produce (fruit) but only bear it (displaying Christ in us,  fruit  ) as we abide.

 

 

[Heleadethme]

2Ti 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I understand the OP to be talking about receiving the engrafted word, which I agree with......because it is the entrance of the word that gives light.   Speaking particularly of the Romans 6 scriptures in this instance.

Looks like a lot of hairsplitting going on here with some of the posts.  How do we separate the word of God from the Word made flesh?  We were saved through the washing of the water of the word when we received it/Him to be engraved on our hearts.  That is, we received the word/Word of the gospel by revelation of the Holy Spirit.  And we grow and continue to be changed into His image from glory to glory as we behold His glory in scripture.

This thread seems to have gone off topic.....the topic is a worthy subject.....about reckoning ourselves dead to our old man and sin.  I doubt the OP intended this to become a debate about which comes first the chicken or the egg.  Let’s just be thankful for and heedful of both, as we continue seeking first His righteousness and kingdom.

[steve morrow]

HIS  RIGHTEOUSNESS

 

JOHN 7:16  JESUS  answered them and said ---MY  doctrine is not mine but  HIS  that sent  ME---

--7:17-- if any man will do  HIS  will he shall know of the doctrine ---whether it be of  GOD  --- or whether I speak of --myself--

--7:18--  he that speaketh of himself  ---seeketh his own glory--- but he that seeketh  HIS  glory that sent him  ---the same is true --- and no unrighteousness is in him ---

 

EPHESIANS 4:17  this I say therefore and testify in  THE  LORD  that you henceforth walk not as other gentiles walk ---in the vanity of their mind---

--4:18-- having the understanding darkened ---being alienated from the life of  GOD  ---through the ignorance that is in them--- because of the blindness of their heart---

--4:19-- who being past feeling have given themselves over unto ---lasciviousness to work all uncleanness with greediness---

 

--4:20-- but you have not so learned  CHRIST ---

 

ROMANS 1:18  for the wrath of  GOD  is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men ---who hold the truth in unrighteousness---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

 

 

[Alive]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:35 AM, Alive said:

If I may bring something into the conversation that may help as it has been a help to me over the years.

As has been stated here on this forum, the Lord blessed me in that He led me to read much of Watchman Nee when I was first saved--that experience laid a good foundation.

Nee discussed head knowledge juxtaposed against what he termed "experiential knowledge" and this in the context of regenerate "In Christ" of the Father individuals.

He taught that sometimes knowledge comes first and later experience and at times experience first and understanding after. This position can help us to understand, that it is God in us that does the works that He prepared before we were born. The fruit born in us, is produced by a Life. And that Life is Christ. Understanding this is very good in many ways, but that understanding doesn't produce the fruit. His Life in us does. We are New Creatures because of that New Nature in us--which is Christ. His Life in us is dynamic, active and one can say it flows. That flowing is for a different discussion. We see fruit born in very simple individuals that have little scriptural knowledge. This is a matter of 'Life'.

:-)

THe hair splitting in this OP is worth the splitting and yet it seems some are talking past each other. The crux of this is 'the source' and not the mechanics.

Does any of us in this OP believe that the source of Life and Fruit is anything other than Christ? As I mentioned above--: "the flowing" can be a different discussion and that relates to "abiding", but first we must agree on the only one and only source.

Agreed?

[Heleadethme]

29 minutes ago, Alive said:

THe hair splitting in this OP is worth the splitting and yet it seems some are talking past each other. The crux of this is 'the source' and not the mechanics.

Does any of us in this OP believe that the source of Life and Fruit is anything other than Christ? As I mentioned above--: "the flowing" can be a different discussion and that relates to "abiding", but first we must agree on the only one and only source.

Agreed?

The Spirit and the Word agree....they are one.  Hear o Israel the Lord is one.  Jesus said if anyone abides in His word they are His disciples. 

[Cntrysner]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thanks, but I cannot help you understand my views as they pertain to that post until I understand the relevance of quoting from Ephesians 1:17-22. If you are lacking in the "eyes of your understanding" then I encourage you to pray and seek God's wisdom. That being said the appeal to enlightenment by the Spirit is not related to what I posted; The written word is already enlightened . 

 

Obedience does not beget regeneration. 
Teaching does not beget regeneration.
Understanding a teaching does not beget regeneration. 
Obedience does not make someone a slave of righteousness (it makes them a slave to the law). 
Teaching does not make a person a slave of righteousness. 
Understanding does not make a person a slave of righteousness. 

Regeneration begets obedience, not the other way around. 

 

What is there not to understand? Regeneration is the point of conversion, the point at which we are regenerated, brought from death to life. Humans cannot do that. God does that. Unless a person is born again - born anew from above (Gk: gennēthē anōthen) s/he cannot see the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:3). That birth is from above, not from the flesh, will, or conduct of the dead-in-sin slave to sin. God made us alive in Christ (Col. 2:13). This birth is not of the blood or will of the flesh or the will of man, but the will of God (Jn. 1:13). It is a birth caused by the Father through the resurrection of His Son (1 Pet. 1:3) out of a seed that is imperishable through the living Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23). While we were still dead in sin God made us alive in His Son together with His Son by grace (Eph. 2:4-5). It is the Spirit who gives life (Jn. 6:63). 

As I have already noted (at least twice, I think): Paul is writing as a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. Or, to put it in the language of the text, Paul is writing as a bondservant of righteousness to bondservants of righteousness about bondservants of righteousness. 

Not sure what's not clear about this. It is straight our of the Spirit-inspired, living and active word of God. 

 

Romans 6:1-23
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?  May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?  Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.  For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,  knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;  for he who has died is freed from sin.  Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,  knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.  Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.  Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,  and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.  For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.  What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!  Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?  But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,  and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.  I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.  For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.  Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

If a person has not died with Christ and been united with him in the likeness of his death then that person is not and cannot be a bondservant of righteousness apart from that Christ. No amount of teaching, understanding, or obedience will change that condition. Only after regeneration can we be bondservants of righteousness. Having been freed from sin we become slaves of righteousness. That is what the text states. 

Not sure what's not clear about this. It is straight our of the Spirit-inspired, living and active word of God. 

I agree with your understanding and it is all Christ in us that brings us to enlightenment and slaves of righteousness. Is it your understanding it is not by what we believe (our faith), our will, our obedience, or our works, etc...therefore their is nothing a unregenerate can do but it is by His calling and Him regenerating us and making us slaves to righteousness?