A Thought Experiment…some fun

[Alive]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Can we add the word "speculative" to the title of the op ? 

 

Any answer we might give absent something explicitly stated in scripture would be speculative. I, personally, word are because God is immutable His nature does not change; He is ontologically as He has always been. Therefore if He is a God Who works, or a God of work, then the answer to the second question of the op is an emphatic, unqualified, and undeniable, "Yes!" but we may not know how He was working. He was working but we know not what He was working. 

If our current understanding of the universe (creation ) and the universe is founded upon a singularity that God has created then there is a possibility this is not the first creation the Creator created. Or to put it more accurately: a single act of creation that begets as many sequential creations as God desires . There are a series of conditional "ifs" necessary for this to be true. If the singularity contracts and expands as is currently hypothesized then this might not be the first expansion, or it might be any one of a number of expansions and contractions that have occurred in the past and will occur in the far distant future. This is intriguing because if our destiny is immortality then we can reasonably infer God will somehow remove us from time. If our destiny is eternity then God somehow makes us extra-temporal . 

I don't read any reason in the Bible how or why this couldn't have previously occurred. The Bible speaks of this creation and all that ensures within this creation; the cause-and-effect of The Uncaused Cause creating the first cause. 

If there are prior cycles of the singularity God created then God has been working. We could apply verses like Colossians 1:17 = God holds all things together. If therewas a prior cycle of the singularity (or a previously existing singularity) then God has been at work holding it and all things within it together and doing so in accordance with His purpose for that cycle. 

Point of clarification: Nothing I am saying should be construed to say I support reincarnation of anything. There is a beginning and an end and in this creation it is appointed beforehand for man to live once, die once, and then face judgment. 

 

 

 

There's also another way we can understand the answer to the second question must be in the affirmative: 1 Peter 1:20. Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice before the world was created. There's only two options here: either God started creating the heavens and the earth and after starting realized a future sacrifice would be needed; he figured that out before creating the world, or that decision was decided upon before anything in creation was created. Since I reject the first option because of the immutability of God, and His omni-attributes, we can reasonably infer God was working prior to creating because He'd already previous decided things pertaining to that which He would be creating..... 

BUT....

.....since time is a created condition that foreknowledge, that decision, that volition existed extra-temporally . 

Try getting your head around that! 

So everything I've just posted might fall apart because a sequence of singularities necessarily implies a passage of time, a measure of cause and effect, one cycle after another. We'd have to re-conceptualize our understanding of time in two ways: first in regards to our own experience inside this particular iteration of the singularity, within this particular creation, but also within the context of the God Who exists external to ALL singularity cycles, all created creations. That God is enormous. 

 

 

 

Lastly (for now), modern physics and cosmology also entertains the possibility that this "world" we experience and this universe we observe is merely four dimensions of ten or 11 dimensions about which we know little to nothing. The ideas of the multiverse or the holographic-dataverse are possibilities which, in answer to this op's second question would again mean an affirmative answer necessary. 

Just saying. 

 

 

 

But I also have to say the first question might be a completely misguided question because of its presuppositions . It assumes a "how" where none might apply. The phrase "eternity past" is technically an oxymoron. To be correct we'd have to say eternity precedes, transcends, and continues beyond Genesis and the rest of this creation. And since (I assume we all agree with the next statement) we the regenerate redeemed are going to live immortally in either an entirely new creation or in a renewed or restored creation we understand we are somehow extra-temporal in the future . 

Puzzling. 

God was working on a puzzle . 

God was working on puzzling us . 

Well, some of us, at any rate ; for the rest He's prepared a toasty fire .

Yes we can--most definately meant to be speculative and a little fun. You have said a mouthful that amounts to some possibilities.

:-)

In the context of the core of what you suggested, let's all think about these verses for a moment--in time.

LOL

Eph. 3:7 (MOUNCE-NT) Of this gospel I became a servant according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given to me by the exercise of his power. ⁸ To me, the very least of all the saints, this grace was given: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, ⁹ and to make it plain to all what is the administration of the mystery, which was kept hidden for  Ages in God who created all things, ¹⁰ in order that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, ¹¹ according to the eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, ¹² in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in him.

What is His eternal purpose? What ages? What scope?

[Starise]

21 minutes ago, Sower said:

I can dwell on eternity in the future and not be totally confounded. But I can only do that in terms of time. A few years ago I began to dwell on " eternity past", or like Josheb stated, the eternity that precedes or transcends this creation. The more I thought going back, billions trillions to the nth degree,( realizing time has no effect on The Great I Am), I realized I did not have the capacity to go back back back back back because there is no beginning, there is no wall to come to, there is no end. My / our minds I believe do not have the capacity to grasp, only to wonder. Thinking on it caused me mental shut down. I try not to think on it much anymore, and accept my inability to ( imagine) an answer, any answer. It reinforces my comprehension of Gods awesomeness.

I would see this probably the same way. I mean, everything we do down here as men is sequential and everything we see happening has a sequential outcome. Sure we can undo things. This is also a sequential process. A backwards sequence that has a forward outcome. While the absence of time is not sequential God has placed a series of happenings into non time called creation. We understand the basics of that construction but do not understand a place that lacks it. Since time provides us a 'place' and a designation, lack of it would seem to be a non place, yet where ever God is designates something. I don't believe He leaves His mark anywhere without it. His fingerprints make places. We see this in the visions of John in Revelation. God is in a place because He is there and everywhere He is is somewhere. Could we argue that where God isn't doesn't exist? 

As Josheb inferred, many today believe in levels or strata or alternate dimensions. These are only theories. This thought process is leaned on heavily in New Age teaching as well as scientific view. String theory ( all things are connected ) Multi dimensions or alternate realities. All of this is being accepted as almost fact. Generally scientists don't go quite so far as to insist it's true, however many think it is.

I would not deny that since we have intelligent  beings who were likely included in many of God's plans, they were on the 'inside' of what happened, so by a little rubber band extrapolation on my part, some of what we are hearing from those sources might just have a grain of truth to it.

That God 'unpacks' an idea into a creation I would agree. I think He made everything before He made everything if that makes any sense. In some form it was all preconceived beforehand. What looks to us like a sequence is really a whole construct we only see part of. This is why God knows the future inside and out. He looks at the whole thing simultaneously.

I can't comprehend being outside of that. We would just be. Unless another sequence is created for us our future existence seems neutral for lack of a better term. I'll take neutrally timeless with God any day, if they existed.

I hesitate to bring this next part up because it's controversial and I have no solid evidence for it other than witness testimony in multiple instances of time warps and similar. If it happens this means God is aware it's happening and is making allowances for it. Some people have experienced events in time that were as if they slipped into another time briefly, or so they say. They call these time slips. Others have experienced a loss of time unawares usually in connection with some sort of unusual event or visitation in the spirit realm and sometimes associated with UFOs and paranormal types of events. I think we have enough evidence to say something occasionally happens that no one really understands. In my very limited ability to know and/or discern any of this with certainty I might venture to guess that if a being designed to exist outside of time somehow manages to rip into our realm there could likely be a wake created similar to the waves after a boat passes as an illustration. Some of 'no time' somehow gets mixed into our time when this happens. Interesting to guess at this stuff. Many people have lost hours after an event and can't account for it....and no- drinking and drugs were not involved.

God is the Father of time and we are all in it. I am content to know He is in control of it.

 

[Alive]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

I don't know. Does it matter?

I don't know. Perhaps.

[The_Patriot21]

 

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I don't know. Does it matter?

Probably not, but so what? Does it matter if it matters or not? Cant people have a little fun lol

[Alive]

45 minutes ago, Josheb said:

While there may have been "ages" preceding the age or ages within Biblical history we know the ages mention ("this age and the next" or "age to come") are all included within this creation and not specifically prior to creation. The use of the word "eternal" has always been a curiosity for me because when it comes to God the word goes backwards and forwards; He is without beginning or end. But for humans eternity has only forward significance because we have a beginning and we do not have pre-existence.  

I would say God's eternal purpose is to make creatures in His image. I would go further to say the making of creatures in his image is rooted in the first blessing or command ever uttered to humanity: be fruitful, multiply, subdue and rule. God specified those words in regards to the earth but I see no reason why all of creation is not founded on that principle and God Himself is creating creatures in that vein. 

 

 

 

 

Point of clarification: nothing I've just posted should in any way construed to reflect the LDS belief God is making other gods. Scripturally speaking there is only one God. Logically speaking there can be only one immutable and omni-attributed God. Polytheism is a oxymoronic. 

Yes--it is my conviction that God's specific 'eternal purpose' is/was to have a family of 'kind' with whom He wishes to share existence and what He has and will make. Sons.

Is Christ and more to the point, those of us "in Him"--who are the many (first of many), unique?

When we are translated, do we enter eternity in both directions and or stand above the timeline(s) when required?

:-)

Point of clarity--I agree with your point of clarity.

another point of clarity…when I mentioned Christ’s uniqueness, that was meant to isolate His affect in this earth and sky. Is The Logos’s affect unique to and or strictly for the world that started in Genesis.

Is His work limited by this construct?

[TheBlade]

Hmm define "eternity". An unending "time". There is no time in heaven. What you ask to us could be one second or a billion years. 

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

God is the Father of time and we are all in it. I am content to know He is in control of it.

 I personally think there's more to what's going on in this creation than what we can even imagine. I hesitate to extrapolate on some of my thoughts, for fear of dishonoring the Father. The idea of a host of heavenly witnesses, watching events unfold, between 2 or more, involved in these events that will come to a final outcome, the conclusion already known. Witnesses watching, As if we're on some gigantic chessboard. (Where do these thoughts come from?) If we are Pawns in the flesh, we're on one team. If we're Pawns in the spirit we're on the winning team. We know we're on the winning team because God has made it known to us. So, why does the captain of the losing team continue to play? When it has already been foretold. And think about this. God has been around for a long time, since forever, if there was such a thing as forever going toward the past. Are we created to be able to participate in this present existence between Good and Evil, with the understanding that God knew everything, everything, that will occur before time?

Is this considered a vain imagination?

( I've only had one beer.)

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Sower said:

 I personally think there's more to what's going on in this creation than what we can even imagine. I hesitate to extrapolate on some of my thoughts, for fear of dishonoring the Father. The idea of a host of heavenly witnesses, watching events unfold, between 2 or more, involved in these events that will come to a final outcome, the conclusion already known. Witnesses watching, As if we're on some gigantic chessboard. (Where do these thoughts come from?) If we are Pawns in the flesh, we're on one team. If we're Pawns in the spirit we're on the winning team. We know we're on the winning team because God has made it known to us. So, why does the captain of the losing team continue to play? When it has already been foretold. And think about this. God has been around for a long time, since forever, if there was such a thing as forever going toward the past. Are we created to be able to participate in this present existence between Good and Evil, with the understanding that God knew everything, everything, that will occur before time?

Is this considered a vain imagination?

( I've only had one beer.)

We know “all” His enemies are defeated.

I agree with what you suggest, that this field has a scope far greater than we can presently know.

Paul experienced things impossible to utter. I am making at least one assumption, but I have long wondered.

I am looking forward to walking through a wall.

:-)

[Alive]

@Sowerthe thing that blows my mind is that we are in Christ and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. I suspect this means much more than what I have attempted to discuss in my wee essays below.

The God of all we have discussed recently, was born as a man, suffered, dies, ascended to make it happen.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

 

Probably not, but so what? Does it matter if it matters or not? Cant people have a little fun lol

I thought he was serious and wanted a legit answer.