Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[Charlie744]

54 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

And that statute would surely fall down.  

The Stone did strike the feet and it did break apart the iron and clay feet. It was not meant to tear down the statue just separate the iron and clay of the feet. It was to divide the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. This is another reason the 4th kingdom is Rome not Greece. Rome conquered them. There is a 2,000 year difference between these two verses. His first coming and His second coming when everything is crushed and thrown into the wind. The ONLY way to discover this is to break the dream sequence down and then break the interpretation sequence down into their respective events and compare them. 

I can assure you this will take you months to do this now that you know WHAT to do. The most difficult thing for me was to discover this HAD to be done at all to see what God was hiding in plain sight. 

Charlie

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

So, the little horn and the beast are not the same and if they are not, then do both continue on until the end of days?

My response would be yes- the little horn is the papacy and the beast is the secular side of things that worships material things and has no concern for anything God. 

What do you think?

 Thanks, Charlie 

 

The little horn and the 1st beast are the same. They are the Antichrist who was and is not and yet will come again. Isaiah 14 CLEARLY IDENTIFIES who this beast is. For one thing he is called both the Assyrian and the King of Babylon. There is only one person in history who fulfills that description.

And no, the papacy is not the beast, though it is clearly involved. Vatican City is that great city that the gets destroyed by the beast. The Vatican is the whore of Babylon, who is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The so called, Holy Mother Chruch is the woman that dressed in purple and scarlet.

Rev 17
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Edited December 15, 2021 by The Light

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The problem with my previous post is there are just too many questions or issues to consider. 

Perhaps we might take one at a time?

In 7 we find 3 actors in the 4th kingdom 1) beast, 2) 10 horns, 3) little horn.

The original 4th kingdom (legs of iron) was pagan Rome. 

The feet of iron and clay was a combination of pagan Rome and other non-Roman folks ruled by pagan Rome. 

The 10 toes became the 10 horns.

The ‘Stone’ that hit the feet would break apart the iron and clay feet into its separate components. 

Leaving the 3 actors in 7. 

So, the little horn and the beast are not the same and if they are not, then do both continue on until the end of days?

My response would be yes- the little horn is the papacy and the beast is the secular side of things that worships material things and has no concern for anything God. 

What do you think?

 Thanks, Charlie 

 

I have answered your question, Daniel's (Little Horn) is a literal future human man, that is the very same character as John's (The Beast)

I have clearly stated that the bad guy seen in Daniel chapters 7,8,9,11, represent the same "future" human man, that comes on the scene at the end of time

I have shared how this future human man will be a Jew/Hebrew in decent as Daniel 11:37 describes

I disagree with the reformed historicist teaching of the papacy and Rome throughout history

Scripture clearly teaches that there will be a future great tribulation of 3.5 years, this starts at the revealing of the future bad guy in Jerusalem

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited December 15, 2021 by truth7t7

[JoeCanada]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

And thousands of satrapies. All consolidated over time into the 4 main regions of control. And there are clearly 4. 

It's the idea of who and where they ruled after the dust settled and the smoke cleared. We aren't given a time frame as to when the 4 would emerge as the top dogs or how long the particular General would reign, or the length of the dynasty; the important aspect is the division of the kingdom of Alexander. Accomplished as prophesied.

What's significant is their existence as that is what was prophesied. And it seems to me they all still remain. It's significant Alexander's kingdom was divided into 4 prominent regions, more so than who may have ruled those regions or for how long. 

It's not ignored by me. It's profoundly intriguing those four regions, kingdoms, remain to this day as prophesied. If Gabriel said it was four then it was four; no matter what 1000 books by 100 historians say to attempt to make alterations.

Since Gabriel's words are the standard here and he said four, then four it is. The prominent ones after all the shooting ended were Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus and Seleucid ruling Greece, Egypt, Asia Minor and Mesopotamia, respectively.

Hi Diaste,

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

If Gabriel said it was four then it was four;

I totally agree with you here. And Gabriel also said three times that the vision pertains to the time of the end, not a couple of millennia before the end.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

the important aspect is the division of the kingdom of Alexander. Accomplished as prophesied.

I have to disagree with you. The historical evidence just doesn't line up. History says that 3 prominent dynasties emerged after all was said and done, and these dynasties remained for almost two centuries. 

I don't think the division of Alexanders kingdom is important at all. I don't believe it has anything to do with Daniels vision. And again, history does not align with this prophecy of the divided kingdom into four, not Alexanders. 

People are trying to make this piece of the puzzle fit where it doesn't belong....it's not even from the same picture. The piece belongs to an end-time picture.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's profoundly intriguing those four regions, kingdoms, remain to this day as prophesied.

Yes....of course they remain to this day. But they are land masses. Not power masses. It still does not line up with Gabriel's explanation of the vision to Daniel.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

The prominent ones after all the shooting ended were Cassander

It was in the 5th Diadochi war that Cassander died, 297BC. Yet the wars continued for several more decades. 

When it was all said and done, Ptolemies ruled Egypt, Attalids ruled Asia Minor, and the Seleucid Dynasty ruled much of the old Persian Empire.

[DeighAnn]

52 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The Stone did strike the feet and it did break apart the iron and clay feet. It was not meant to tear down the statue just separate the iron and clay of the feet. It was to divide the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. This is another reason the 4th kingdom is Rome not Greece. Rome conquered them. There is a 2,000 year difference between these two verses. His first coming and His second coming when everything is crushed and thrown into the wind. The ONLY way to discover this is to break the dream sequence down and then break the interpretation sequence down into their respective events and compare them. 

I can assure you this will take you months to do this now that you know WHAT to do. The most difficult thing for me was to discover this HAD to be done at all to see what God was hiding in plain sight. 

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Maybe that is why I have no 'calling', cause you are.  You will get it all worked out, I will take it to Scripture and if it isn't already upon us, it will be there for those who don't have time.  Got to love the many membered body!!!  

BUT I know that when Satan is cast from heaven THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW IT.  It won't be like some ruler who slowly rises (though his forerunner I believe will and we will find out if you are right all at the same time).

I know that God will send the two witnesses.  I know we will for a short time be plunged into a really scary time, the deadly wound, and once it is healed the image set up, I am good to go in avoidance of that whole thing.  I am also ready if I am called up and since I can't take the mark until then, I am going to stay in as much peace as possible. I figure if God was good enough to give me tomorrows newspaper I will be wise enough to use it to be prepared for those events.  Should anything remove that I know I will be under His promises and power and might.  So I keep following your journey and hopefully will soon be wise enough to read and patiently wait for the answers, instead of jumping in and asking questions

Thank you and keep up the good work     d

 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Charlie,

Maybe that is why I have no 'calling', cause you are.  You will get it all worked out, I will take it to Scripture and if it isn't already upon us, it will be there for those who don't have time.  Got to love the many membered body!!!  

BUT I know that when Satan is cast from heaven THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW IT.  It won't be like some ruler who slowly rises (though his forerunner I believe will and we will find out if you are right all at the same time).

I know that God will send the two witnesses.  I know we will for a short time be plunged into a really scary time, the deadly wound, and once it is healed the image set up, I am good to go in avoidance of that whole thing.  I am also ready if I am called up and since I can't take the mark until then, I am going to stay in as much peace as possible. I figure if God was good enough to give me tomorrows newspaper I will be wise enough to use it to be prepared for those events.  Should anything remove that I know I will be under His promises and power and might.  So I keep following your journey and hopefully will soon be wise enough to read and patiently wait for the answers, instead of jumping in and asking questions

Thank you and keep up the good work     d

 

DeighAnn, thank you for your thoughts, they are ALWAYS appreciated. First, and we have had this brief conversation before, your thoughts, opinions and studies are as important as anyone on this planet. There is no doubt you have and will continue to contribute to my learning and those within this forum. Please take a look at the responses to my posts - whether it is about the book of Daniel, the body and soul, the afterlife or after death, etc. It is clear that MOST of my thoughts are not accepted, in line with their interpretations or even considered any longer than the time it took to read them (if even read through to the end). 

The goal, as I see it, is to read everyone's thoughts and bounce them against mine, (assuming I had read the verse or subject under discussion), and learn from it... doesn't mean I have to accept their thoughts but always interesting. Your take and interpretations provide a way of looking at things that no one else can see... and it needs to be heard and read. There is only One God and the rest of us.....Each of us have been given gifts to use and from what I have seen in this forum, everyone is bringing them here to use to understand their God..... that is all we should care about... He reads everyone of your responses and it would be a shame for Him to see a missing section in His morning paper where your writings would have been printed.

For me, the most difficult issue is to try and isolate an issue - because the Scriptures are so interconnected and linked with His thoughts it is so easy to bring them all into one problem to address. Daniel is a perfect example.... we can look at all three of the images of the four kingdoms at once and draw some conclusions but even before we do that maybe we need to ask why is God giving us 3 separate images of the same four kingdoms.  Once I found (again my opinion), the metal man image of chapter 2 is a static image with ONLY one action taken place (the Stone hitting the feet), and that it is strictly meant to define the boundaries and limitations of the 4 kingdoms (before we get into the details), things started to make more sense to me. 

God is telling us; here is the physical measurements of the 4 kingdoms. It will be 4 stories tall, each story will sit on top of the other, there are no floors or spaces between each of the 4 levels. And further, to assist you in interpreting each of the 4 levels, I am going to color code them for you AND identify a few physical characteristics of each floor to help you interpret which floor you are on (different parts of a man). Don't worry about 7 and 8, just study and learn what I am trying to show you in 2 alone. This is the blue print of the 4 story building - it is static and can not go anywhere... you are not allowed to build on it... you can not allow other unauthorized people to enter the building. Here are the people that will live and work on each floor....

When we get to chapters 7 and 8 I will give you some insider information of these 4 groups so you can get a better understanding of them.. By the way, you will frequently see me throughout the building, there is no part of the building I will not visit ... I will sign in everytime I arrive ...

Bottom line is to isolate one issue at a time if we can and move on only after we think we understand the natural / literal side as well as the prophetic and eschatological messages He leaves around the building. 

Please keep responding and offering your thoughts and interpretations!!!! Charlie

 

[DeighAnn]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

DeighAnn, thank you for your thoughts, they are ALWAYS appreciated. First, and we have had this brief conversation before, your thoughts, opinions and studies are as important as anyone on this planet. There is no doubt you have and will continue to contribute to my learning and those within this forum. Please take a look at the responses to my posts - whether it is about the book of Daniel, the body and soul, the afterlife or after death, etc. It is clear that MOST of my thoughts are not accepted, in line with their interpretations or even considered any longer than the time it took to read them (if even read through to the end). 

The goal, as I see it, is to read everyone's thoughts and bounce them against mine, (assuming I had read the verse or subject under discussion), and learn from it... doesn't mean I have to accept their thoughts but always interesting. Your take and interpretations provide a way of looking at things that no one else can see... and it needs to be heard and read. There is only One God and the rest of us.....Each of us have been given gifts to use and from what I have seen in this forum, everyone is bringing them here to use to understand their God..... that is all we should care about... He reads everyone of your responses and it would be a shame for Him to see a missing section in His morning paper where your writings would have been printed.

For me, the most difficult issue is to try and isolate an issue - because the Scriptures are so interconnected and linked with His thoughts it is so easy to bring them all into one problem to address. Daniel is a perfect example.... we can look at all three of the images of the four kingdoms at once and draw some conclusions but even before we do that maybe we need to ask why is God giving us 3 separate images of the same four kingdoms.  Once I found (again my opinion), the metal man image of chapter 2 is a static image with ONLY one action taken place (the Stone hitting the feet), and that it is strictly meant to define the boundaries and limitations of the 4 kingdoms (before we get into the details), things started to make more sense to me. 

God is telling us; here is the physical measurements of the 4 kingdoms. It will be 4 stories tall, each story will sit on top of the other, there are no floors or spaces between each of the 4 levels. And further, to assist you in interpreting each of the 4 levels, I am going to color code them for you AND identify a few physical characteristics of each floor to help you interpret which floor you are on (different parts of a man). Don't worry about 7 and 8, just study and learn what I am trying to show you in 2 alone. This is the blue print of the 4 story building - it is static and can not go anywhere... you are not allowed to build on it... you can not allow other unauthorized people to enter the building. Here are the people that will live and work on each floor....

When we get to chapters 7 and 8 I will give you some insider information of these 4 groups so you can get a better understanding of them.. By the way, you will frequently see me throughout the building, there is no part of the building I will not visit ... I will sign in everytime I arrive ...

Bottom line is to isolate one issue at a time if we can and move on only after we think we understand the natural / literal side as well as the prophetic and eschatological messages He leaves around the building. 

Please keep responding and offering your thoughts and interpretations!!!! Charlie

 

WOW, what a great explanation.  That is how the story needs to be told.  And I am talking from beginning to end.  And I thought it was just a history lesson on how Satan works through different kingdoms so we would recognize the 2nd to the last one and not get sucked into it.  

Thank you for all the very kind comments to me and everyone else.   I am trying to work on the 'unity' thing by trying to find something I can agree with everywhere I go and you certainly are showing how that is done and that wasn't even your point.  How is that for walking holy!  I have a long ways to go but I am inspired.  

Anyway, I do jump in and make comments when I am led that way but truly I have never really been called to this subject and  I am just waiting for you to get to Revelation.  Practicing my patience I am.   For me there is to big a mixt between past and future.  I have a super simple time line and it goes like this.  

Satan is coming
Don't be deceived
Don't worship
Don't buy and sell where that is required
Endure to the end
Hit any snags, remember I sent two of my best to help out
I will always be there, remind me of my promises, If I have to hide my face for a moment just hang out
King of Kings on his way so GET READY when you see those two killed cause we got a day of work coming to finalize everything and then REALLY GET READY cause the things you can't imagine are on their way.....

Till then help as many as you can get dressed for the battle and PRAY  I will be worthy to be called up to stand up for what I see as the only moment in all eternity I will ever be afforded the opportunity to REALLY STAND for GOD.  AH, to be beheaded.  Talk about helping divide the sheep from the goats....all my life I have been asked 'what do you want to be' and all my life I never had an answer.  Maybe that is why I study so much.  Nah, I just truly love it

[Diaste]

On 12/15/2021 at 10:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

Hi Diaste,

I have to disagree with you. The historical evidence just doesn't line up. History says that 3 prominent dynasties emerged after all was said and done, and these dynasties remained for almost two centuries. 

I don't think the division of Alexanders kingdom is important at all. I don't believe it has anything to do with Daniels vision. And again, history does not align with this prophecy of the divided kingdom into four, not Alexanders. 

I think the only important aspect. Kings don't last, Dynasties don't last and most of the time Empires don't last, especially over 2500 years. I think it's related to God's view of the earth and has a parallel with Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is holy to the Lord God. Doesn't matter who sits in the throne, Jerusalem endures. And it's not about the city as much as where it sits. The Promised Land. I think regions and land are vital in understanding this prophecy.

One certainly gets no insight from Dynastic rule, that's long gone. What does remain is the region, country, area, or whatever it's called. I don't see that it matters who ruled what for how long either as that would make no sense to a prophecy that was to find fulfillment 2500 years later. At least in my mind, anyway. 

On 12/15/2021 at 10:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

People are trying to make this piece of the puzzle fit where it doesn't belong....it's not even from the same picture. The piece belongs to an end-time picture.

Yes....of course they remain to this day. But they are land masses. Not power masses. It still does not line up with Gabriel's explanation of the vision to Daniel.

They have power. Not like it was in Alexander's day, of course. But there is more to it than just a region, especially if they joined forces.

On 12/15/2021 at 10:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

It was in the 5th Diadochi war that Cassander died, 297BC. Yet the wars continued for several more decades. 

When it was all said and done, Ptolemies ruled Egypt, Attalids ruled Asia Minor, and the Seleucid Dynasty ruled much of the old Persian Empire.

I made mention of who as it just proves the point there were four clear divisions after the dust settled. Antigonus, Lysimachus and Seleucid all died as well, as did Ptolemy. This is why the division is what's in view and not the initial ruler of that region.

[Diaste]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

We are at different ends of the spectrum on all the above. But that is okay. I will try and respond to all or most of this in the AM. However, I would respectfully ask if you would study the term ‘horns’. They are not interchangeable with ‘notable ones’. And the little horn did not come out of the 10- he was very different than the other 10, for he had eyes, etc., the little horn is a man (papacy). The 10 horns are powers not a man. 

Thanks, Charlie 

I have no idea what you refer to. 

In the Concordance and the lexicon it's the same word. Whether that's translated as 'horns' or 'notable' it's still 

chazuth
Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-zooth')
Definition: vision, conspicuousness"

I think the KJV gets it right, or at least closer to the reality. But I can also see why the others, most all of them, render it 'horns'. 

In Dan 8:5 it is said the he-goat sported a 'chazuth qeren' or notable horn. That same term, chazuth, is used in Dan 8:8. It's literally just 'conspicuous four', nothing about 'qeren'. But the idea of conspicuous is a part of the 'chazuth qeren' of the he goat of 8:5. since the four rise in the stead of the 'qeren' of the he-goat the same idea applies, and therefore 'horns', when they actually mean 'conspicuous'.

The many translations do this as the horn of the he-goat represents power, in this case in Dan 8:5 it's not just notable but highly conspicuous. Likewise the 'chazuth' of Dan 8:8 carries the same idea but 'qeren' does not appear. Another reason for the idea of horns in Dan 8:8 is the four arise from under or below, instead of the great horn of 8:5. So it makes sense it's four horns as the great horn is power and the four rise in power as well. But again, there are no horns in Dan 8:8 it's just 'chazuth arba', conspicuous four.

 

 

[adamjedgar]

you guys do realise the "two witnesses" are the old and new testaments of the bible right?