Separation of Body and Soul is Unbiblical.

[enoob57]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks again for the prompt response! Just read that opinion... hope you do not mind me saying it but that is a really terrible response. Tries to cover almost all possible theories and really says nothing... confusion.

Let me try this a different way if you do not mind and I would ask if I can have your own thoughts: what is the makeup of a man? How are we created by God? Shouldn’t that be our starting point to determine what happens at death AND then what will happen at the resurrection?

Charlie

 

No it's just stating the reality of different groups and what they believe what Scripture teaches... as I said the Bible is not definitive on answer! I am not concerned with temporary for the very fact of temporary but the eternal estate is definitive and there is where my rest in God lies...

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

No it's just stating the reality of different groups and what they believe what Scripture teaches... as I said the Bible is not definitive on answer! I am not concerned with temporary for the very fact of temporary but the eternal estate is definitive and there is where my rest in God lies...

Ok, and NOT to be argumentative but you did post the image of a man showing 3 separate parts - I believe a yellow, blue and the third section was the body?

Therefore, you believe in a 3 part construction of a man?

 

[enoob57]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

Ok, and NOT to be argumentative but you did post the image of a man showing 3 separate parts - I believe a yellow, blue and the third section was the body?

Therefore, you believe in a 3 part construction of a man?

 

yes because of what Paul listed as the whole of man...

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, enoob57 said:

yes because of what Paul listed as the whole of man...

Oh, I got it! Could this possibly be similar to a phrase we use today “kind, body and soul”? I don’t know the actual Greek used in this verse and it’s English translation but I believe it is something meant to be thought of as ‘general’ wish for one to hope for AS OPPOSED to commenting on the construction of a man and what happens to each part of that man.

The reason I brought this up is because, for me, it does not reflect the actual makeup of a man as he was created by God in Genesis. So, this leads me to take this comment that Paul is wishing/praying that all of man is saved and not meant to be proof of man’s construction. If it was then it would have to be in agreement with Genesis and it does not.

Hope that made sense, Charlie 

 

[Dennis1209]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:53 AM, Scott Free said:

 

"It is generally accepted that in biblical thought there is no separation of body and soul and, consequently, the resurrection of the body is central. The idea of an immortal soul is not a Hebrew concept but comes from Platonic philosophy. It is, therefore, considered a severe distortion of the NT to read this foreign idea into its teaching.", Vogels, "Review of "The Garden of Eden and the Hope of Immortality", by James Barr", Critical Review of Books in Religion, volume 7, p. 80 (1994).

"Indeed, the salvation of the 'immortal soul' has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical. Biblical anthropology is not dualistic but monistic: human being consists in the integrated wholeness of body and soul, and the Bible never contemplates the disembodied existence of the soul in bliss.", Myers (ed.), "The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary", p. 518 (1987).

"A broad consensus emerged among biblical and theological scholars that soul-body dualism is a Platonic, Hellenistic idea that is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible, from cover to cover, promotes what they call the "Hebrew concept of the whole person." G. C. Berkouwer writes that the biblical view is always holistic, that in the Bible the soul is never ascribed any special religious significance. Werner Jaeger writes that soul-body dualism is a bizarre idea that has been read into the Bible by misguided church fathers such as Augustine. Rudolf Bultmann writes that Paul uses the word soma (body) to refer to the whole person, the self, so that there is not a soul and body, but rather the body is the whole thing. This interpretation of Pauline anthropology has been a theme in much subsequent Pauline scholarship.", McMinn & Phillips, "Care for the soul: exploring the intersection of psychology & theology", pp. 107-108 (2001)

 

The way I interpret it:

We were (are) created in the image of God, a triune being, consisting of three separate and distinguishable components; the body (skĕuŏs), the spirit (pneûma), and soul (psychḗ). 

Using a tire as a metaphor, it could be described like this: The rubber tire is the skĕuŏs: Skeuos - σκεῦος (skeuos), 1. object, a thing, any kind of instrument (Ac 10:11; 11:5; 27:17); 2. LN 6.118 vessel, such as: jar, dish, pottery, et cetera, (Lk 8:16; Jn 19:29; Ro 9:21; 2Co 4:7); 3. LN 57.20 belongings, possession, merchandise (Mt 12:29); 4. LN 9.21 person (Ac 9:15); 5. LN 8.6 body (1Th 4:4).

In context, our skĕuŏs is our outer shell (rubber tire), body, and person; which contains our soul and spirit, gives us function and mobility as God's imagers. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

Same could be said for "vessel" (skeuos - body).

Our psychḗ(soul) would be the innertube. Psyche is an interesting word. It's our personalities, likes, dislikes, gifts, wants, desires; whom we really are. 

The pneûma is our spirit, the invisible air that inflates and pressurizes our being. Our spirit and our soul are what defines us, and separates us from the animal kingdom. Animals too have bodies, souls and spirits:

Living Soul (Nephesh Hayyah – Nephesh Ha-Hayyah): Humans are animated by the Breath of God in Genesis 2:7 (a living soul). Animals have a soul also, and described the same way in Genesis 1:21.
 
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [Creature = nephesh = Soul].
 
Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? [Man and beast spirits are both = rûwach = breath; spirit].
 
Animal life has a “ruwach” i.e. animate life, the breath of life. Land animals and humans have nostrils; insects, plants, fish, microorganism's, aquatic life; do not. 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

As we see, our spirits return to the Lord, and animal spirits return to the ground. 

We see the "rich man" in the torment side of Hades. His psyche (his soul, what and who he is) is fully intact and functioning. He retains his memory, emotions, feelings, regrets, etc. Every human ever born, will one day be bodily resurrected and be reunited with their soul, and reside in one of two places, with or separated from God for all eternity. 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The above verse seems to be the great divide.

 

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

@enoob57, if you do not mind, would you please tell me the make up of these three components? I assume you believe in a 2 part construction of man... spirit, soul and the body.

Obviously even I understand the 'body' component but what specifically is the 'spirit' and the 'soul' components and their function of purpose?  Further, when we die what happens to each one of them?  Thanks so much, Charlie

 

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The Bible gives three distinct divisions of the makeup of man:

 

Well done!

Language is given by God to transmit ideas. If God says that He made a body from the dust, breathed his breath (which is spirit) into it, and it BECAME a living soul, there are, by the rules of logic, mathematics and language THREE parts. The most perfect Man who ever lived was our Lord Jesus. At death He "commended His spirit" to God. This is in agreement with Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7, and in agreement with every other death where the man "gave UP the ghost". Our Lord's Body was laid in a tomb on the surface of the earth. But our Lord told the thief who appealed to Him, that He would, that day, be together in Paradise. And Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:8-9 says that our Lord FIRST DESCENDED to the heart of the earth and stayed there three days.

By the rules of logic, mathematics and language our Lord Jesus was divided to three destinations - one for His spirit, one for His body and another for HIM - His soul (Act.2:27-34)

Finally, the Temple of God has three parts; (i) the outer court where the flesh is slaughtered and where the washing of the flesh took place in the Laver, (ii) the Holy Place, and (iii) the Holy of Holies. Man is reported, by the inspired record, to be the Temple of God. 

When a dead child was resurrected his "soul cane to him" (1st Ki.17:22). Again, when Christ raised a girl from the dead in Luke 8:55, "her spirit came to her AGAIN". By the rules of language "she" (i) was separate from her spirit, and (ii) the word "again" means it was once with her before this separation, went away and returned.

It is a sad day when some of the best and most ediucated minds ignore the very rules of communication we live by everyday. 

[Scott Free]

12 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

The way I interpret it:

We were (are) created in the image of God, a triune being, consisting of three separate and distinguishable components; the body (skĕuŏs), the spirit (pneûma), and soul (psychḗ). 

Using a tire as a metaphor, it could be described like this: The rubber tire is the skĕuŏs: Skeuos - σκεῦος (skeuos), 1. object, a thing, any kind of instrument (Ac 10:11; 11:5; 27:17); 2. LN 6.118 vessel, such as: jar, dish, pottery, et cetera, (Lk 8:16; Jn 19:29; Ro 9:21; 2Co 4:7); 3. LN 57.20 belongings, possession, merchandise (Mt 12:29); 4. LN 9.21 person (Ac 9:15); 5. LN 8.6 body (1Th 4:4).

In context, our skĕuŏs is our outer shell (rubber tire), body, and person; which contains our soul and spirit, gives us function and mobility as God's imagers. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

Same could be said for "vessel" (skeuos - body).

Our psychḗ(soul) would be the innertube. Psyche is an interesting word. It's our personalities, likes, dislikes, gifts, wants, desires; whom we really are. 

The pneûma is our spirit, the invisible air that inflates and pressurizes our being. Our spirit and our soul are what defines us, and separates us from the animal kingdom. Animals too have bodies, souls and spirits:

Living Soul (Nephesh Hayyah – Nephesh Ha-Hayyah): Humans are animated by the Breath of God in Genesis 2:7 (a living soul). Animals have a soul also, and described the same way in Genesis 1:21.
 
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [Creature = nephesh = Soul].
 
Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? [Man and beast spirits are both = rûwach = breath; spirit].
 
Animal life has a “ruwach” i.e. animate life, the breath of life. Land animals and humans have nostrils; insects, plants, fish, microorganism's, aquatic life; do not. 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

As we see, our spirits return to the Lord, and animal spirits return to the ground. 

We see the "rich man" in the torment side of Hades. His psyche (his soul, what and who he is) is fully intact and functioning. He retains his memory, emotions, feelings, regrets, etc. Every human ever born, will one day be bodily resurrected and be reunited with their soul, and reside in one of two places, with or separated from God for all eternity. 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The above verse seems to be the great divide.

 

Hi, Dennis1209. One thing to note is that psyche and nephesh are from two different languages, both translate to mean the same thing. Were would the word "soma" or physical body fit in as used in these scriptures?

 "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matt 5:30

 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28 

[Scott Free]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Paul was guided by The Holy Spirit and he listed them distinct and separate... as I believe in a every word inspiration of the Word of God 'verbal plenary' ... 

That's nice.

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks, I just saw a mistake in my earlier message to you... it should have read a ‘3 part’ not a 2 part. But you answered it anyway. 

So what happens to each of the 3 parts at death?

 

For those who are born again believers in Jesus Christ our soul and spirit goes immediately to heaven. The outer body is buried at death or is cremated or destroyed depending on how a person dies. The outer body will be resurrected at the rapture of the Church to come together with the soul and spirit. 

[Starise]

I don't see the direct correlation between God being triune and the need to describe man the same way. I say this because there is no requirement for a being made in God's image to be made in the same way. I am not saying men and women are not multi layered in some way. I just can't see the rationale in saying since God is made up this way, so are men?

I see men as having a body and a soul. That's only two parts. Not three. Where do you get the 3rd part? A man made in God's image means simply we are made with the general appearance of God. 

Death is an unnatural event in so far as it was never intended to happen in the beginning. Even though men had layers, we were made to be one unified being forever. When death came along as the result of sin, God ordained men and women would die.