A Prewrath Rapture question

[Biblican]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What do you mean by "the tribulation?" If you had said "days of great tribulation do not really begin until the end of chapter fourteen," you would have been correct. If you meant the 70th-week, that will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

Candlestick = church?  Certainly in chapter 1 for it is written. Churches are local gatherings of saints you were given the great commission to take the gospel to the world - in other words, to preach and testify of Jesus Christ. What do the Two Witnesses do in chapter 11?  "when they shall have finished their testimony"

Hmm. They testify! They are killed. Then they are raised from the dead. I think they are the two men that have never died.

They are called up just before the last trumpet sounds.

No, it only looks that way. They SHOW UP just 3.5 days before the exact midpoint, which is marked by the 7th trumpet. Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. They show up then because the man of sin just moved to Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. They trample the city for 42 months. The Two Witnesses show up (from heaven where they have been for thousands of years) because the man of sin will enter the temple in 3.5 days.

Did you notice that Chapter 12 must be a midpoint chapter because it has two countdowns from the midpoint to the end?

Trumpets in scripture are used to announce religious gatherings or war. The context suggests war.

Sorry. Not in this case: these are judgments from heaven to the earth.  However, one or more of them may well represent nukes.

So the "warning period of the trumpets" ends with a rapture and the tribulation begins.  

Sorry, there is no rapture and no gathering at the 7th trumpet. That is imagination and myth. What REALLY happens at the 7th trumpet is that Adam's lease ends, Satan suddenly has no more legal hold to earth, and is cast down. The kingdoms of the world are given back to their legal owner, Jesus Christ.

If you look at the two groups in chapter seven, the 144 and the church that comes out of great tribulation, pick that chapter up in your mind and set it down over chapters fourteen and fifteen, you see the same two groups, only the 144 are safely in heaven before the wrath is poured out at the end of that chapter.

When anyone attempts to rearrange Revelation, I know their theory is bogus. Leave chapter 7 right where it is - between the 6th and 7th seals. Have you ever watched a play where they close the curtain between acts of the play? What happens behind the curtain? They are REARRANGING THE SET.

That is exactly what John (with the Holy Spirit behind Him) is doing. God MUST SEE two events take place (the setting rearranged) before the 7th seal can officially start the 70th-week of Daniel and the first salvo's of the Day of the Lord. God MUST see the 144,000 sealed for their protection and also see the church safely in heaven. The great tribulation they came out of is the tribulaiton of living without Christ in this world multiplied by this huge unknown number of people, probably billions. God calls that great tribulation. Take careful note, John has not yet started the Week, much less arrived at the days of GT Jesus spoke about that will start in chapter 14.

In Chapter 15, we see the martyrs (beheaded) from the Beast BEGIN to show up in heaven, further proof that the days of GT Jesus spoke of will begin late in chapter 14.

There is a big difference between what you say is rearranging scripture and coordinating scripture to see how it all fits. The 144 are seen safely in heaven after the rapture of the churches/witnesses in chapter 11. They have to be churches because they are called candlesticks. There is no other application for the word in Revelation. They don't remain in chapter seven which is a prophetic picture of what happens to those two groups in the future. Most misinterpretations of Revelation occur because they are dreams/visions and unless one has a gift of interpreting visions they are going to come up with false interpretations. You have to understand prophetic symbolism.

Satan was cast down when Jesus ascended not at the seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet signals the beginning of God's wrath. The best book by someone who understands prophetic revelation is here - https://www.cafelogos.org/revelation.html  It should give you a different perspective and it corrects a lot of previous misinterpretations.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

There is a big difference between what you say is rearranging scripture and coordinating scripture to see how it all fits. The 144 are seen safely in heaven after the rapture of the churches/witnesses in chapter 11. They have to be churches because they are called candlesticks. There is no other application for the word in Revelation. They don't remain in chapter seven which is a prophetic picture of what happens to those two groups in the future. Most misinterpretations of Revelation occur because they are dreams/visions and unless one has a gift of interpreting visions they are going to come up with false interpretations. You have to understand prophetic symbolism.

Satan was cast down when Jesus ascended not at the seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet signals the beginning of God's wrath. The best book by someone who understands prophetic revelation is here - https://www.cafelogos.org/revelation.html  It should give you a different perspective and it corrects a lot of previous misinterpretations.

The point is, Revelation is already in perfect order. There is no need for any rearranging. Anyone that imagines it must be rearranged simply lacks understanding.

They are seen safely in heaven because they are FIRSTFRUITS - no other reason.  So two churches get killed? No, two men get killed. It makes far more sense. 

I think you need more study.

ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation is simply wrong.

[Biblican]

I am not rearranging anything. I am asking you to coordinate scripture. Compare how the 144 are seen. They appear in chapter 7, 9 and 14. In seven they are sealed, in 9 they are being protected and in 14 they are safely in heaven. The two witnesses are raptured or taken up if you prefer. Because they are churches/candlesticks, most likely the Philadelphian remnant that is promised protection, we can see that in all likely hood the 144 are that remnant that is protected and taken up before the blood bath at the end of 14. It's okay to use logic. It is also very important not to ignore prophetic keys that are given to help interpret the visions. The two witnesses are called candlesticks, therefore they have to be churches as there is no other application for the word in Revelation. This vital clue to their identity is often overlooked, which very clearly, according to the context of the book, reveals their identity. 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Biblican said:

I am not rearranging anything. I am asking you to coordinate scripture. Compare how the 144 are seen. They appear in chapter 7, 9 and 14. In seven they are sealed, in 9 they are being protected and in 14 they are safely in heaven. The two witnesses are raptured or taken up if you prefer. Because they are churches/candlesticks, most likely the Philadelphian remnant that is promised protection, we can see that in all likely hood the 144 are that remnant that is protected and taken up before the blood bath at the end of 14. It's okay to use logic. It is also very important not to ignore prophetic keys that are given to help interpret the visions. The two witnesses are called candlesticks, therefore they have to be churches as there is no other application for the word in Revelation. This vital clue to their identity is often overlooked, which very clearly, according to the context of the book, reveals their identity. 

How did John "coordinate" his writing? In many cases he numbers events for proper sequencing. Then he wrote things in the exact order he saw in the vision. 

I agree with you about the 144,000. They are sealed, then they are protected from the stinging locusts, and then they are seen in heaven and John tells us they are "firstfruits." 

I do not agree with you that the two witnesses are churches. God does things with a purpose. There are two men that never died a physical death. Why would God do that when He also wrote that it is appointed unto men once to die? It makes FAR more sense when the two men are killed that it is two men, not two churches.  However, if you wish to believe they are churches, you are free to do that.

Why do you ignore the two olive trees in zech. 4?

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Then are the two annointed ones. Sorry, but this does not sound like a church or a bunch of people who gather on a Sunday.

[WilliamL]

On 3/13/2022 at 6:56 PM, transmogrified said:

I am not saying people will not see him coming in the clouds...they will as those scriptures plainly say...but he has to come before they can see him, and he doesn't come until the day of the Lord...not during the 6th seal.

Since the "great day of His wrath is come" at the 6th Seal, when every eye sees the Lord, then, according to you, the Church will go through the time of the Wrath of God all the way up to the 7th Trumpet. 

But according to Jesus, He will "gather together His elect/chosen" at the time that everyone sees Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven." Matt. 24:30-31

[WilliamL]

On 3/14/2022 at 8:47 AM, iamlamad said:

does the end of the age happen at the sixth seal or on the day Christ returns at the Second Coming? 

Yes.

All your preconceptions notwithstanding, the End of the Age takes place over many years, in stages. For example, God removes his elect of the Church years before he judges and delivers Israel. So the effective End for the Church is different than the End for Israel.  

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Since the "great day of His wrath is come" at the 6th Seal,

Does Jesus set foot on the Mt. Of Olives with all his saints at the 6th seal?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Does Jesus set foot on the Mt. Of Olives with all his saints at the 6th seal?

Of course, NOT.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes.

All your preconceptions notwithstanding, the End of the Age takes place over many years, in stages. For example, God removes his elect of the Church years before he judges and delivers Israel. So the effective End for the Church is different than the End for Israel.  

No, that is just human reasoning off on a tangent. There is a book. It has writing INSIDE. I think the entire 70th week is written INSIDE the book. At a minimum, the trumpet judgments are written inside the book.

NO trumpet can sound until all seven seals are opened first. That fact makes it impossible for the 6th seal to  be moved anywhere but where it is, just before the start of the time of Jacob's trouble or 70th-week.

Leave the 6th seal where John put it and you will be on you way to making good sense.

I believe the church will be "taken out of the way" just before the 6th seal starts God's wrath.  We then come back with Jesus to Armageddon.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Since the "great day of His wrath is come" at the 6th Seal, when every eye sees the Lord, then, according to you, the Church will go through the time of the Wrath of God all the way up to the 7th Trumpet. 

But according to Jesus, He will "gather together His elect/chosen" at the time that everyone sees Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven." Matt. 24:30-31

Whoa, back! He will come as Paul shows us, a coming just before wrath, but John shows us ANOTHER coming to Armageddon. These are two very different comings over 7 years apart. Perhaps "every eye will see Him at His ARmageddon coming. How could someone see Him if He is hidden in a cloud? 

You are right though, that the great day of His wrath will happen at the 6th seal, but the 6th seal must stay where John placed it: between the 5th and 7th seals and before any part of the tribulation.

Next, don't confuse a gathering from heaven after the tribulation of those days with Paul's gathering before the tribulation. These are two separate events separated by over seven years.