Petition

[R. Hartono]

Just copy pasted this kind of petition by somebody, shouldnt it be addressed to protestants ?

https://www.change.org/p/the-catholic-church-a-petition-to-open-churches-to-the-homeless-on-cold-winter-nights

Many homeless people exposed to heat, cold, dirt, shortages, hunger, thirst, desperation and loneliness finally suffer from mental issues.

I posted a video (but its deleted) how a local unbelievers /good Samaritan dedicate their hands to shelter the poor Lazarus laying helpless and the churches pretend they don't see.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 1/4/2022 at 4:34 PM, R. Hartono said:

ust copy pasted this kind of petition by somebody, shouldnt it be addressed to protestants ?

https://www.change.org/p/the-catholic-church-a-petition-to-open-churches-to-the-homeless-on-cold-winter-nights

Many homeless people exposed to heat, cold, dirt, shortages, hunger, thirst, desperation and loneliness finally suffer from mental issues.

I posted a video (but its deleted) how a local unbelievers /good Samaritan dedicate their hands to shelter the poor Lazarus laying helpless and the churches pretend they don't see.

The point is not invalid, and denominations are irrelevant. Did Jesus encourage organized churches to be homeless shelters, or was he more about having individuals (like in the parable of the good Samaritan) loving their neighbors and looking out for their welfare.

What are tithes and collections used for? Does a church have an food panty, a clothing and sundries ministry, do they work supporting homeless shelters, etc. Where I live, they do (and they also care for spiritual needs) so I am not too quick to act with holier than thou criticism. However, if they were to open the doors to the homeless, they would have their doors closed when civil authorities shut them for not having the proper permits and zoning to house people. The would be closed for health violations, especially in this time of Covid. Sometimes there are practical considerations which get in the way of our idealism.

Before we criticize what other do or fail to do, perhaps we need to be asking:

"What am I doing, personally, to help?"

It is so easy to leave things up to governments, churches, charities, rich people and others, but which is more helpful, criticism, or action? Some people might even be critical of churches collecting tithes. I am not a proponent of tithes for the church, but I am a proponent of voluntary giving. In the Old Testament, it was not 10% that was expected, it was 23+%! I think then it is fair to say, that those who are indwelled with God's Spirit, should have it within themselves to be able to outgive the tithe. Since it is a percentage, it should not be too burdensome. After all, we own nothing, it all belongs to God, he has put us in charge of a small amount that is a blessing for us, and an enablement of us to bless others. How well are we doing. That is a question to ask ourselves, instead of being nosey about what the other guy is doing.

[R. Hartono]

6 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

The point is not invalid, and denominations are irrelevant. Did Jesus encourage organized churches to be homeless shelters, or was he more about having individuals (like in the parable of the good Samaritan) loving their neighbors and looking out for their welfare.

What are tithes and collections used for? Does a church have an food panty, a clothing and sundries ministry, do they work supporting homeless shelters, etc. Where I live, they do (and they also care for spiritual needs) so I am not too quick to act with holier than though criticism. However, if they were to open the doors to the homeless, they would have their doors closed when civil authorities shut them for not having the proper permits and zoning to house people. The would be closed for health violations, especially in this time of Covid. Sometimes there are practical considerations the get in the way of our idealism.

Before we criticize what other do or fail to do, perhaps we need to be asking:

"What am I doing, personally, to help?"

It is so easy to leave things up to governments, churches, charities, rich people and others, but which is more helpful, criticism, or action? Some people might even be critical of churches collecting tithes. I am not a proponent of tithes for the church, but I am a proponent if voluntary giving. In the Old Testament, it was not 10% that was expected, it was 23+%! I think then it is fair to say, that those who are indwelled with God's Spirit, should have it within themselves to be able to outgive the tithe. Since it is a percentage, it should not be too burdensome. After all, we own nothing, it all belongs to God, he has put us in charge of a small amount that is a blessing for us, and an enablement of us to bless others. How well are we doing. That is a question to ask ourselves, instead of being nosey about what the other guy is doing.

That petition is simply asking (not forcing) the church to pay attention for the homeless in this cold winter, which most churches never care about even before this pandemic. Is that so nosey ? @BawbWe cant help the poor alone we need church contribution together that the homeless may receive love and place to listen to the Salvation of Gospel. The food ? We can share our kitchen cooking with them in turn. If a church shelter five people then 100 churches can save 500 homeless not taken care by the government. If your church has 200 members, each day 5 members can share each family meal for them in turn one after another, it will take 40 days until their next turn to share their kitchen meal. Too heavy ?

Indonesian churches gathered in 2021 to discuss the plan to provide churches as emergency clinic to treat patients not accepted by Hospitals. This is a good idea to help government and Covid patients. And government also expected the church to function as quarantine spots, as hotels rent by government is expensive.

The result of the meeting by the churches said Thats the thing too hard to do. (Harder than Quoting verses.) As they fear members will leave them for good. Will you ?

@Saved.One.by.Grace

Edited January 5, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Bawb]

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Just copy pasted this kind of petition by somebody, shouldnt it be addressed to protestants ?

https://www.change.org/p/the-catholic-church-a-petition-to-open-churches-to-the-homeless-on-cold-winter-nights

Many homeless people exposed to heat, cold, dirt, shortages, hunger, thirst, desperation and loneliness finally suffer from mental issues.

I posted a video (but its deleted) how a local unbelievers /good Samaritan dedicate their hands to shelter the poor Lazarus laying helpless and the churches pretend they don't see.

 

Are we not "The church"? But I ask you should the right hand be talking to the left about such matters? Should we be like the Rabbi's and Pharisees making a show over what we do? Or should we be giving in secret that the Father reward us openly?

Let the Catholics help. I figure the amount of gold in St. Peters could easily fund the homeless. Also let their mega-churches could be turned into mega-homeless shelters...

I understand your heart Brother and I commend you for it. But who is to say folks on here are not already doing the things you're talking about?

Edited January 5, 2022 by Bawb

[Guest]

There is a question of security.  Churches without armed security to protect their parishioners leaves their flock at risk. This is not a good thing.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

That petition is simply asking (not forcing) the church to pay attention for the homeless in this cold winter, which most churches never care about even before this pandemic. Is that so nosey ? @BawbWe cant help the poor alone we need church contribution together that the homeless may receive love and place to listen to the Salvation of Gospel. The food ? We can share our kitchen cooking with them in turn. If a church shelter five people then 100 churches can save 500 homeless not taken care by the government. If your church has 200 members, each day 5 members can share each family meal for them in turn one after another, it will take 40 days until their next turn to share their kitchen meal. Too heavy ?

Indonesian churches gathered in 2021 to discuss the plan to provide churches as emergency clinic to treat patients not accepted by Hospitals. This is a good idea to help government and Covid patients. And government also expected the church to function as quarantine spots, as hotels rent by government is expensive.

The result of the meeting by the churches said Thats the thing too hard to do. (Harder than Quoting verses.) As they fear members will leave them for good. Will you ?

@Saved.One.by.Grace

Since I don't have a home church or regularly attend church services, what you all do is fine with me.  It just sounds like a means for spreading Covid while feeling good about yourself, a self-serving "sacrifice".

[TheBlade]

I can understand what the OP is saying. My understanding of helping the poor.. you don't just hand them a few bucks pat your self on the back and move on. You keep helping till they are back on their feet. For me not wise to help those that want to stay where they are. So as much as I would LOVE to say CHURCH you do it..yet.. wait I am the Church I need to do it. 

Not really about the poor but I remember once me and my wife took in to missionaries. My wife had made two pies on top of the fridge. We went somewhere came home haha BOTH pies were gone. We love it! Sorry just made me remember that.  

[R. Hartono]

On 1/5/2022 at 11:18 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

The point is not invalid, and denominations are irrelevant. Did Jesus encourage organized churches to be homeless shelters, or was he more about having individuals (like in the parable of the good Samaritan) loving their neighbors and looking out for their welfare.

What are tithes and collections used for? Does a church have an food panty, a clothing and sundries ministry, do they work supporting homeless shelters, etc. Where I live, they do (and they also care for spiritual needs) so I am not too quick to act with holier than though criticism. However, if they were to open the doors to the homeless, they would have their doors closed when civil authorities shut them for not having the proper permits and zoning to house people. The would be closed for health violations, especially in this time of Covid. Sometimes there are practical considerations the get in the way of our idealism.

Before we criticize what other do or fail to do, perhaps we need to be asking:

"What am I doing, personally, to help?"

It is so easy to leave things up to governments, churches, charities, rich people and others, but which is more helpful, criticism, or action? Some people might even be critical of churches collecting tithes. I am not a proponent of tithes for the church, but I am a proponent if voluntary giving. In the Old Testament, it was not 10% that was expected, it was 23+%! I think then it is fair to say, that those who are indwelled with God's Spirit, should have it within themselves to be able to outgive the tithe. Since it is a percentage, it should not be too burdensome. After all, we own nothing, it all belongs to God, he has put us in charge of a small amount that is a blessing for us, and an enablement of us to bless others. How well are we doing. That is a question to ask ourselves, instead of being nosey about what the other guy is doing.

Shalom Om,

It has been delayed so often but now I just want to refer to your 23%, you seemed to include the tithe for personal consumption at the Sukkoth festival in Jerusalem, this tenth can be converted into money (as Jerusalem is far) and not submitted to the Levit. They could buy food and drink for enjoyment at Sukkoth in Jerusalem.

Further the Levit must submit tenth of the tithe they received to the Priest, so the Priest only rcvd 1/100 ! There is no truth to copy 1/10 or 1/100 as tithe is food from the land of Israel (from owner of crop and cattle business only). So we know Peter didnt tithe neither Paul who Made a living making tents and there are many jobs that didnt tithe like labours who sold their muscle.

Further the 3rd year tithe was aimed to include strangers, poor widows and orphans of all land of Israel (not merely for the Levit and the Priest).

Its good to give more than tenth but it should not be mandatory.

Not all christians are rich and the poor should be helped instead of making them life in more lack.

https://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/223/What-Is-Second-Tithe-Deuteronomy-1422-26.htm

Edited January 18, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Omegaman 3.0]

42 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Its good to give more than tenth but it should not be mandatory.

Not all christians are rich and the poor should be helped instead of making them life in more lack.

Hi Hartono!

First, to the Christian, there is no required tithe, so of course it is not necessary. However, the notion of the tithe had nothing to do with being rich, it was a percentage, not a set amount. If a person had the means, then they paid much from their wealth, a person with nothing, paid nothing. 

For the Christian, the expectation is to give from the generosity of the heart yet proportional to one's means - a portion of the Lord's riches that He has entrusted to us as His stewards, remembering that what we control does not belong to us. Even our own lives belong to Him, we are His property and we own nothing.

My main point was that since we have been indwelled with His Spirit, we should be all the more willing to let go of some of what He has entrusted us with, than any person without His Spirit is able to.

Of course there are Christians who are poor, but Christians seeking to love and honor the God who bought them should be desirous of being generous with what they have. How many who are reading this are doing so on a computer or phone, over an internet connection? I imagine at least a few. Most of those have some way of paying for those luxuries, and if they are not sharing with others, is their heart right? 

Sometimes we can use our own poverty to excuse our own stinginess. I would guess that everyone reading this could give something to help those not as well off as we are, and being critical of churches or the rich who are accountable to God is not as good a use of our consideration as looking to our own lives and actions. Wouldn't you agree?

[R. Hartono]

On 1/5/2022 at 12:27 PM, Bawb said:

 But I ask you should the right hand be talking to the left about such matters? Should we be like the Rabbi's and Pharisees making a show over what we do? Or should we be giving in secret that the Father reward us openly?

Let the Catholics help. I figure the amount of gold in St. Peters could easily fund the homeless. Also let their mega-churches could be turned into mega-homeless shelters...

Its not about showing off your good deeds if you disclose what charity you and your church did to help the situation of this petition, who are you here ??? Nobody knows your face, where you live not even your name ! 

Do you see why such petition is put because churches have been built like a commercial college where people learn Theology and pay the abused tithe, lack in humanity for poor society.

They are not even able to follow an old granny who contributed her old bones with warmth for the needy. They only build million dollars palace style church. Shame.

@Omegaman 3.0