Our Final Conversion

[Guest]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:24 PM, Starise said:

The old man passes away and the Lord replaces it with the new man. 

The word 'flesh' is often used to describe that part of us that is unacceptable to the Lord. That part of us that wants to do things that are not spiritual. That part we all live with while on this earth. The part of us that works against and contrary to the spirit.

Renewal of the old man is happening as the Lord works in each of us believers daily.

I like some of your points, but concerning the "old man" (sin nature), it remains of the Cross in us (Rom 6:6) until "death and hell are cast into the lake of fire." Hence the term "new man," which is a nature newly "created" (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10); for the old man (flesh) could never be brought to be "subject to the law of God" (Rom 8:7). 

 

 

 

[debrakay]

22 hours ago, Starise said:

How long does the blood of Christ cover us?

The blood of Christ's sacrifice only needs to cover the earthly man, the human man, the sinful man.  He came specifically to save the sinner, pay the price of sin of all the men and women here on earth.  Once we draw our last breath on this earth that blood covering has done it's purpose if we have chosen Him as our savior and king.  We are free from sin and death. When we walk with Him and live with Him as immortal we no longer need a covering of our sin as we are no longer sinners.  We are joint heirs with Him.  

[Starise]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

First, to your observations about inheriting Adam's nature. God set forth a Law in Genesis 1:11-12 that everything that has its seed within itself, will produce the same "Kind" as itself. This is observable in nature where dogs can never successfully pair with a fox, and cats never produce puppies. This Law is so immutable that the nature of the very Savior is set by it. He had to be both God and Man to achieve a salvation that was eternal. And this Law sets forth our rebirth and sonship to God. The tragedy is that before he ever had offspring, Adam took something into his flesh that irreversibly changed his seed. The terrible truth is seen in Genesis 5:1-3. There, Adam is declared to have been made in the image and likeness of God. According t the Law in Genesis 1:11-12 he should have produced a son "in the image and likeness of God". But we read that he produced a son in his OWN likeness and his OWN image. The seed of man was forever changed and it produced its "kind" in every man after that except Jesus.

Yes and I think I get all of that. The thing that to this day causes me to pause is in thinking the action directly influenced the future. I see it as indirect because the action in and of itself did not produce the results as if some law of nature demanded it. The action of sin brought about God's reaction which then caused the perpetual bloodline of sine. God's judgment on the seed of Adam produced that curse in all of us. God chose to make the punishment generationally perpetual. Could he have chosen to only curse Adam and Eve? I suppose He could have but He didn't and we are all the beneficiaries.

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thus, with the generation of mankind, the only reasonable solution was death. So God banned man from the one thing that could make him live (in misery) forever - the Tree of Life. God did man a huge favor in appointing him to death. The alternative was to let man live forever in the condition you so aptly put above. But death, as clean a solution as it is, leaves God's honor in question. He set out with man to be like Him and to rule for Him. Shall a mere creature - an angel - thwart the ALL-mighty? Perish the thought! The councils of God are irrevocable. He will get what He wants. And in the process of getting what He wants, he will display more glory. Whereas death is an end to the Adamic nature, resurrection is the solution to death. But this is still not enough for then we have a man who has passed through death and resurrection but is still not in the image and likeness of God.

This idea that death was a relief is a relatively new one to me because I have always seen death as a curse and as such, it isn't a natural thing. Yet, I have said this here before- Adam and Eve were supposed to make babies even before the curse. If we follow that line of thought just a bit further we can see that lots of babies with zero deaths amounts to many people. That's only important because the earth is only so big and eventually it's going to be over burdened with people. This leaves us with a few unanswered questions for obvious reasons. If death is an end to the Adamic nature, a born again man would presumably be in the pre sin Adamic state. The very same state Adam was in before he sinned. UNLESS something more takes place. Another improvement.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

God's solution to this is magnificent! He allows His Son, Second in the Godhead, to become a man. By the Law of "kinds" Jesus is 100% man because He came out of Mary. And God sets Jesus under Law. So not only does Jesus take the form of a man completely, He also must live a life under God's Law. This He does admirably - not breaking a single commandment. In this, He fulfills the righteous of the Law. But then God goes a step further. Law requires the guilty to die. But God asks Jesus (for it must be voluntary) to die - the innocent for the guilty! This is way above Law. Normal justice requires the guilty to pay, but now we introduce love and honor. Jesus, for love of His Father first, and then love of His Creation second, and His sense of honor to the Father's plan, Jesus goes to a horrible end VOLUNTARILY!

I would call it guerrilla warfare. Same way that no one expected Jesus to be born of peasants in a manger. God comes in the back door and wins the war. It always produces confusion for the enemy. Why does God use the weak to make fools of the strong? I believe it's because it confounds the enemy. Not only this. God can use any resource. No matter how small, so threats can come from literally anywhere...and they do. Satan believed his might and power would win the war. Yahweh going in the opposite direction shows him daily that even the smallest of His creation can defeat him through His mighty power. Probably burns him to no end.I believe Satan thought he had a victory when Jesus was crucified.....little did he know.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But now God comes in with that unique and unending power - the power to give the dead life. And so our Lord Jesus is raised on the third day. Now we have a completely new thing. We have a MAN who has passed through the full spectrum of human life life under Law, life outside of Law, death and resurrection. And because He was DIVINE as well, the whole process become everlasting. The full spectrum of a God-pleasing life, God-pleasing death and resurrection is ADDED to the Godhead. And then God does something so clever. He makes this whole process of a perfect human life, death and resurrection available by the Holy Spirit. That is why our Lod said tat it was expedient" that He go away. His single human body could reach multitudes of men, but the Spirit could. And what more, because the whole process was eternal, God could give His processed Spirit to men who believed BEFORE Christ came. Men like Moses and David, who embraced the prophecy of the coming Messiah, enjoyed the same results that you and I enjoy - ATONEMENT and REBIRTH.

Well said.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

A man's sins are to be put away IF; (i) he believes in the completed work and Person of Christ, and (ii) he is under a Covenant that promises this. So the Christian enjoy the washing away of his guilt and debt,AND he is born of God thereby being made partaker of God's nature. This is momentous, but it is not all. The moment of rebirth is not only new, heavenly and spiritual birth, but it is the moment when Jesus, as promised in the gsopel of John, comes to dwell in the believer WITH THE WHOLE PROCESS OF PERFECT LIFE, DEATH AND RESURRECTION. The believer not only has his sins put away, not only is born a son of God, but he has, in the Person of Jesus Christ, ALL THE RESOURCES OF A GOD-PLEASING LIFE, AND THE GUARANTEE OF RESURRECTION. Christ as the Spirit dwelling in man is the hope of God fulfilling His plan to have men in the image and likeness of Christ, fit to rule the earth. It is thus; "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory" (Col.1:27.29). But notice the context;

You make this all sound so good. If only it had all come to be immediately. The whole thing must look like a joke to Satan right now. These mere men. slipping and falling left and right. What is this? Is this your army?Is this going to be part of the heavenly host? We have the potential but few have gotten close.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• To deny his soul-life
• To crucify his flesh daily
• To experience persecution
• To experience rejection
• To experience fiery trials (1st Pet.1:3-9)
• To detach himself from the hope of what money can do
• To actively practice Godly attributes (2nd Pet.1:4-11)

As you say there is an expectation. We can't lay back as if there is nothing else to do. Neither should we view our transformation as a works based salvation. Not following good works to replace the blood of Christ, but striving for good works in the realization that our degree of yielding present opportunity for the Spirit to move in us.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

All these are bitter to the fleshly man, and so God has to warn us that we must cooperate. He sets a day before each Christian in which he/she will (i) have to give an account of their works "done in their body", and (ii) be tested in how their relationship with this INDWELLING Christ has progressed - for only those who love Him will keep His commands. Reward and Loss are set before the Christian (1st Cor.3) as an incentive to STRIVE to know Christ intimately AND to crucify the desires and deeds of the flesh until death. We must not expect perfection while in our old body. Romans 7 and Galatians 5:17 indicate that our flesh will ever attack us with demands that are contrary to God's demands. The battle will be hot and heavy. Blood will be (metaphorically) shed. No prisoners will be taken. The way to glory in resurrection is what we learn to do now. Love your brother but "hate" the garment (your works) spotted by the flesh (Jude 23).

Yes and so many believe this is the passport to heaven when it's really more about obedience in using what we have been given. God has an investment in us and He wants a report at the end in contrast to the judgement of the lost who will all be held to pay for their own sins in hell.

[Starise]

5 hours ago, WordSword said:

I like some of your points, but concerning the "old man" (sin nature), it remains of the Cross in us (Rom 6:6) until "death and hell are cast into the lake of fire." Hence the term "new man," which is a nature newly "created" (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10); for the old man (flesh) could never be brought to be "subject to the law of God" (Rom 8:7). 

 

 

 

 I never doubted we are brand new creations in Christ. I hear you say the old man is removed. A subtractive way of looking at it. Something is taken away and what is left is good but ONLY when God renews it, so the mere occurrence of death in a believer isn't truly enough without some addition plus some subtraction. This gets into another subject covered here not long ago about what makes up a man. How do we divide him? The bible doesn't teach lack of a body. The bible teaches a new body. What about the soul then? All of it combined is one man. We get a new body and a new nature in tandem.

[Starise]

1 hour ago, debrakay said:

The blood of Christ's sacrifice only needs to cover the earthly man, the human man, the sinful man.  He came specifically to save the sinner, pay the price of sin of all the men and women here on earth.  Once we draw our last breath on this earth that blood covering has done it's purpose if we have chosen Him as our savior and king.  We are free from sin and death. When we walk with Him and live with Him as immortal we no longer need a covering of our sin as we are no longer sinners.  We are joint heirs with Him.  

Totally a new creation. Amen!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Starise said:

 I hear you say the old man is removed. 

I think we might be discussing a separate issue, but that's ok. I indicated in the first sentence of my reply that the old man is still in us. This answers to the Spirit's opposition to it (Gal 5:17), Paul's identification of it (Rom 7:14-25), and God's perpetual forgiveness of "all our unrighteousness" (1Jo 1:9).

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Yes and I think I get all of that. The thing that to this day causes me to pause is in thinking the action directly influenced the future. I see it as indirect because the action in and of itself did not produce the results as if some law of nature demanded it. The action of sin brought about God's reaction which then caused the perpetual bloodline of sine. God's judgment on the seed of Adam produced that curse in all of us. God chose to make the punishment generationally perpetual. Could he have chosen to only curse Adam and Eve? I suppose He could have but He didn't and we are all the beneficiaries.

Yeah. It is a mystery to us what happened to Adam. I tend to take; "In the day you eat of it you shall surely die", as the explanation. It was the fruit that corrupted Adam. I support this with Romans 5:23 - "the wages of sin (singular) is death", not "the wages of trespasses (plural)". It is that corrupted Adamic nature that caused death too. God's judgment of course is there. Adam (i) must be clothed by the shedding of blood, (ii) Adam must take responsibility for the fall - "by one MAN came sin", (iii) Adam is driven from the Garden of Fellowship and the Trees, and (iv) Adam must earn his bread in sweat "all the days of his life". Whichever way it went,  it was a terrible mess. But you know what really gets to me in all this shambles? It is that God came looking for Adam. He desired the man he had made - and He paid such an enormous price to get us back.

 

1 hour ago, Starise said:

You make this all sound so good. If only it had all come to be immediately. The whole thing must look like a joke to Satan right now. These mere men. slipping and falling left and right. What is this? Is this your army?Is this going to be part of the heavenly host? We have the potential but few have gotten close.

I know, and agree. We must look comical. But I think Satan does not underestimate Jehovah. In 1st Corinthians 1 we see that God has chosen the weak and foolish so that His glory may shine brighter. Abraham defeated 3 kings and their armies with 318 men, and Gideon with three hundred. The only thing that is constant and consistent is that God always wins - with or without men's efforts.

But there is another thing that bothers me. This matter of losing all to gain Christ, like Paul did, is just not taught anymore. Christian leaders and teachers just swap the 620 odd laws of Moses with some new laws, some "self-improvement" cliches or a feel-good Sunday speech. But I've been member to an Assembly that taught self-denial and the cross - and we never got big. It is not a popular message.

[Hopefully]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:24 PM, Starise said:

Do you think God takes away the ability to sin at that point? If so, why or how?

Hi Starise I believe the ability to sin will be removed because it will no longer exist.

the scripture I will use is:

“He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, sadness, crying, or pain. All the old ways are gone.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:4‬ ‭
 

I believe we either will no longer remember being here or either we will have the full mind of Christ to accept everything that has happened without pain.

 

[Willa]

There is no sin in heaven.  However, during the millinium there will be sin.  

[Starise]

19 hours ago, WordSword said:

I think we might be discussing a separate issue, but that's ok. I indicated in the first sentence of my reply that the old man is still in us. This answers to the Spirit's opposition to it (Gal 5:17), Paul's identification of it (Rom 7:14-25), and God's perpetual forgiveness of "all our unrighteousness" (1Jo 1:9).

The old man is 'eventually removed' sorry I use the wrong tense.Thanks for your thoughts here.

@Hopefully and @Josheb's comments look to be closely aligned on the same idea. The idea of loss of memory or the memory of the old ways will be long gone.

I have wondered the same things when it comes to what those passages actually mean.

Isaiah 65:17 

“For behold, I create new heavens

and a new earth,

and the former things shall not be remembered

or come into mind.

I believe this means we will make the transition into the new earth so well that soon all of those old days will be a distant memory.

It isn't that we completely forget them. It is simply that we have gone on living and moved ahead to the next phase of our lives. At some point in the distant future we will have gained so many other memories, all good memories, that time will push those old ones to a place where we would need to try hard to remember it. It isn't that we CAN'T remember. It's more that we won't remember.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Starise