Eternal state

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

I don’t think that’s funny, in fact, I think it’s downright rude.

It is no doubt to either of us we are opposed and several doctrinal issues that being said stating a tease on that known fact is funny... your trying to make it more than it was a tease (as I stated) makes me wonder why your trying to cause offense  

[Still Alive]

A brain exercise:

The OT was written in a way that those alive at the time could make sense of what it was saying. So, here we go:

Eden was God's place on earth where he could commune with man. 

The bible is written for mankind here on earth. 

We were created as his imager on earth. That is, as far as the earth is concerned, we are God. Kinda like, when you shop at a store in a chain, as far as you are concerned, each employee IS the company.

Jesus is God in the flesh and His "firstborn"

In the bible, "Firstborn" is actually a job title. Firstborn is the manifestation of "the boss" to everyone else in that realm. The manager of this particular store, if you will. In my analogy here, the "store" is the Earth.

In other words, as far as the earth is concerned, we are God (his imager). As far as WE are concerned, Jesus is God. 

So, for those of us on Earth, we have been created to manage it for our creator. We are "his image" to the earth.

Now the fun part...

We have learned in the last century that the universe is more vast than we can even imagine. And the "known" universe is a tiny fraction of it - and it's probably infinite. 

Earth is not the only planet. And for all we know, what is happening on the earth is happening on an infinite number of other planets in our known - and unknown universe. And to be clear, the bible doesn't speak to them. It speaks to his imagers on planet earth and is earth centric. But there may be infinite races of "imagers" on other planets maintaining their own "garden of eden" as a place where God can commune with his creation there.

And our eternal fate is to continue on with what he told Adam and Eve to do in the first place.

Just a brain exercise.

Next chapter...parallel dimensions.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Still Alive

[Uriah]

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Your points are all well taken. I believe any perceived discrepancy is easily resolved by considering the whole of scripture and doing so as best we can from God's point of view, not an anthropomorphized view. The term "eternal state" is extra-biblical. That doesn't mean it's not a valid term; it just means we need to couch our definition(s) firmly in scripture. 

And understand the term "eternity" is meaningless to God's experience. 

Time is a constituent element of creation. 

In other words, eternity doesn't exist in God's eternal state !!! 

                        

The "eternal state" we do/will experience will always be different than God's simply because we are created creatures and He alone is Creator of the created. We will always be created creatures living in created creation and never outside of that which has been created. Genesis 1:1 is inescapable. The new heavens and earth are still created creations. Their "newness" is implicitly indicative of a beginning. This is why AdHoc's observation is so important. There is no time outside of creation. Any time that does exist requires a reference point in order to exist and be measured. Time is merely a measure of cause and effect and The Causal Agent causing the original cause of all causes, even the contingent ones, is God. It's like floating in space and speaking of up, down, east or west. Those terms are meaningless absent a fixed reference point. God is not in any way limited to or by time. He is the Maker of time, and Creator is not subject to that which He created. 

This gives terms like "eternity" context. 

Unless one of us believes cause and effect will cease the eternal state we experience in scripture's assertion of eternity then time will exist. If God continues to work in His creation, and if God continues to work through His-image-made creatures then time still exists. It is not a timeless eternity like the one in which God exists .

Hurts your brain, right? 

The brain has no pain receptors but thinking about this "hurts". 

 

As far as the "eternal state" in which we now partake I completely affirm that position. But, as is generally the case with all spiritual matters experienced on earth, things are different in the heavens. We know angels are all around us here and now, even as I type these words and you read them hundreds of miles away. The angels come and go between the "realms" in both time and space much differently than we can or do. Therefore, we necessarily understand certain created creatures experience time, space, and eternity differently than other created creatures. Neither set of experiences is in any way a concern or limit for God. Angels come and go within creation. God comes and goes, enters and exists external to creation and non-creation. Angels can be in the heavens or the earth, or in the heavens and the earth but they cannot be in the heavens and the earth and outside of both. They cannot leave creation. 

If our post-resurrection existence is similar, if we live in the heavens and transcend whatever boundaries previously existed between the heavens and the earth, then that's a neat and very cool condition but I don't read anything in the Bible to say the redeemed and regenerate creature made in God's image leaves creation itself. I would dearly like to read such scripture and contemplate it, so do please provide me with that content if you're knowledgeable of such. 

 

A great post Josh, 

Only one verse comes somewhat close. Matt 22:30- For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

But I would caution that it can be argued that this pertains to the aspect marriage.

BUT...There is something that, as far as I can tell, even the angels do not have such a privilege and position as we will. When I contemplate it, (almost daily)  I cannot help it, respiration increases and tears begin to well up. 

1 Cor 13:12- (NLT) Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[ All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

Rev 3:21- To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But is New Jerusalem prophesied?

Rev 22:18- For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Who then is "she"? Is "she" literal? Who is the literal mother of us all. The "Father" we know - but the "mother"?

It is an expression. And as I said previously, there are symbolisms in

Revelation. Symbols of something real, like the bride which is made up of MANY people. Even the "mother" of harlots can be symbolic, yet be a real entity.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Aahhh! The Nations go in and out of it. Where are the Nations then? And if the Lamb is given the Nations to reign over, shall the King be in exile? No. Literally or metaphorically, the New Jerusalem is for the earth. The Tabernacle always had no floor for the earth was its floor.

 The nations are on Earth while the city is above the Earth.

The scriptures do not say it lands on the ground. And the size of it would crush nations and tower high above the atmosphere.

Even pagan "royalty" have ruled lands from afar. (Britain-America) The same will be true in this case-from above the Earth.

I don't see "in and out" but those nations and kings you may refer to are once again, those in the city.

Pont 3 is the result of tired typing, not uncommon around here. should look like this: What makes any structure the tabernacle of God is the presence of God.

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Point 4 contradicts your point 3 in your first section.

 Here they are , no contradiction

3. Rev 21 -A city cannot be a bride. The city is her dwelling place that Jesus prepares for her.

4. The bride of Christ is people, not the structure they live in.

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Point 5. The meaning of the Hebrew "to  keep"

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Strong's - 

1.

a. keep, have charge of, garden Genesis 2:15 (J), ark 1 Samuel 7:1, property in trust Exodus 22:6; Exodus 22:9 (E), compare 1 Samuel 25:31; tend flock Genesis 30:31 (E), compare Zechariah 3:7; Numbers 3:8 (P); so perhaps (object omitted) Hosea 12:13 (where שׁ׳ chosen for parallelism Now Marti and others); Participle הֲשֹׁמֵר אָחִי אָנֹ֑כִי Genesis 4:9 (J), שׁ׳ of sheep 1 Samuel 17:20, הַכֵּלִים שׁ׳ 1 Samuel 17:22, הַכְּגָדִים שׁ׳ 2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22, הַנָּשִׁים שׁ׳ Esther 2:3, 8, 15, compare Esther 2:14, etc.

 

Comparisons of usage provided.

[Uriah]

16 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yep.

Bullseye again.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

The new body (body of Christ) is not reconstructed flesh of the earth, it is a new body from heaven.

Christ was resurrected in the flesh but raised to glory. Flesh can not enter into the kingdom of God .1Co 15:50

There are different resurrections of flesh but they are always tied to the earth but we have a heavenly calling with a Spiritual body (celestial)  waiting in heaven.

OK. But you needed to change the crucial words to achieve your point.

• The Body of Christ is the Church, not the individual (Col.1:18, 24)
• The individual members' BODIES are the members of Christ even now in this life (1st Cor.6:15)
• "Flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the Kingdom". Our Lord presented Himself as "FLESH and BONE". It is the blood that is missing. So also Eve who represents the Church (Gen.2:23, Eph.5:30)
• We have a body with celestial GLORY. "Celestial" means heavenly, not "spiritual". Our Lord Jesus pointedly says that He is not "spirit" in resurrection (Lk.24:39)
• Of two resurrections of Christ we find no scripture. He was raised once and presented Himself to His Father first, and then His disciples, on resurrection day (Jn.20:17). He made a point of them touching Him on that day.

I am aware that this is a complicated subject, and also aware that many Christians hold your belief.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 22:18- For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

It is an expression. And as I said previously, there are symbolisms in

Revelation. Symbols of something real, like the bride which is made up of MANY people. Even the "mother" of harlots can be symbolic, yet be a real entity.

 The nations are on Earth while the city is above the Earth.

The scriptures do not say it lands on the ground. And the size of it would crush nations and tower high above the atmosphere.

Even pagan "royalty" have ruled lands from afar. (Britain-America) The same will be true in this case-from above the Earth.

I don't see "in and out" but those nations and kings you may refer to are once again, those in the city.

Pont 3 is the result of tired typing, not uncommon around here. should look like this: What makes any structure the tabernacle of God is the presence of God.

 Here they are , no contradiction

3. Rev 21 -A city cannot be a bride. The city is her dwelling place that Jesus prepares for her.

4. The bride of Christ is people, not the structure they live in.

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Strong's - 

1.

a. keep, have charge of, garden Genesis 2:15 (J), ark 1 Samuel 7:1, property in trust Exodus 22:6; Exodus 22:9 (E), compare 1 Samuel 25:31; tend flock Genesis 30:31 (E), compare Zechariah 3:7; Numbers 3:8 (P); so perhaps (object omitted) Hosea 12:13 (where שׁ׳ chosen for parallelism Now Marti and others); Participle הֲשֹׁמֵר אָחִי אָנֹ֑כִי Genesis 4:9 (J), שׁ׳ of sheep 1 Samuel 17:20, הַכֵּלִים שׁ׳ 1 Samuel 17:22, הַכְּגָדִים שׁ׳ 2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22, הַנָּשִׁים שׁ׳ Esther 2:3, 8, 15, compare Esther 2:14, etc.

 

Comparisons of usage provided.

O.K. Thanks for the reply. Many good expositors take the City for literal. I hear you. I just thought I'd give the other side of the argument. Your points are valid. I guess that it is just a point of view. It's been nice to swap ideas.

Till we meet again - God bless