Hell

[appy]

On 1/22/2022 at 6:42 AM, Starise said:

My beginnings were in an old hellfire and brimstone church. I call it that because more often than not the sermons focused around scaring people into heaven

 

On 1/22/2022 at 6:42 AM, Starise said:

So how do we reach them?

I have never been in a church that gave a “scare them to death ” style of speech on the subject of hell. The ‘good news’ of the gospel message requires that there be ‘bad news first. They need to know, that we believers don't just blindly believe in a living God. They need to come to a position that he is real. It is necessary to tell them what sin is and what it is not. Sin is not a person They need to understand that sin is a wrong thought, wrong deed, or wrong words spoken. Whether against God or another human. All of this is against God's nature and character.

Romans 1 : 18 - 20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

People are said to be sinful/evil, because their actions/deeds are sinful. Then they need to learn what they are being saved from; that they are being saved from God's wrath on SIN itself. And being saved from going to hell as a result of sin. All of this is what “hell” is about.

There are many heinous acts such as murder, rape, etc.... committed by depraved individuals, who never seem to experience judgment in this life. Everyone knows that it is wrong to not hold such persons accountable for what they’ve done; the human heart itself demands justice. And hell is God’s answer.

People have a hard time understanding that even though others have not committed such grievous acts that they too, deserve punishment. We humans in general, have grievances against each other. We would want justice if someone stole something from us, harmed a family member, or committed other unjust acts against us.

Our sense of what is right would demand that the person at fault pay a penalty for wronging us. Every time we break God’s law, that’s an offense to God. And he demands justice, just as we do imperfectly on a smaller scale.

If you’ve ever said in your heart, “That person should pay for what he did!” then you essentially agree with the the doctrine of hell which teaches that  somebody is going to pay for every sin, eventually.

God's justice demands a penalty of death for sin. Not just for heinous sins, but ALL sins. Because all sins are an affront to God. The good news is that God has provided a way out from going to hell, through the death of his son on the cross to pay the debt of sin for us, and if we will accept and believe that, he will declare us not guilty.

 

[missmuffet]

16 minutes ago, appy said:

 

I have never been in a church that gave a “scare them to death ” style of speech on the subject of hell. The ‘good news’ of the gospel message requires that there be ‘bad news first. They need to know, that we believers don't just blindly believe in a living God. They need to come to a position that he is real. It is necessary to tell them what sin is and what it is not. Sin is not a person They need to understand that sin is a wrong thought, wrong deed, or wrong words spoken. Whether against God or another human. All of this is against God's nature and character.

Romans 1 : 18 - 20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

People are said to be sinful/evil, because their actions/deeds are sinful. Then they need to learn what they are being saved from; that they are being saved from God's wrath on SIN itself. And being saved from going to hell as a result of sin. All of this is what “hell” is about.

There are many heinous acts such as murder, rape, etc.... committed by depraved individuals, who never seem to experience judgment in this life. Everyone knows that it is wrong to not hold such persons accountable for what they’ve done; the human heart itself demands justice. And hell is God’s answer.

People have a hard time understanding that even though others have not committed such grievous acts that they too, deserve punishment. We humans in general, have grievances against each other. We would want justice if someone stole something from us, harmed a family member, or committed other unjust acts against us.

Our sense of what is right would demand that the person at fault pay a penalty for wronging us. Every time we break God’s law, that’s an offense to God. And he demands justice, just as we do imperfectly on a smaller scale.

If you’ve ever said in your heart, “That person should pay for what he did!” then you essentially agree with the the doctrine of hell which teaches that  somebody is going to pay for every sin, eventually.

God's justice demands a penalty of death for sin. Not just for heinous sins, but ALL sins. Because all sins are an affront to God. The good news is that God has provided a way out from going to hell, through the death of his son on the cross to pay the debt of sin for us, and if we will accept and believe that, he will declare us not guilty.

 

I think a Church need to use wisdom on what they preach. They should preach from the Bible. The good news of heaven and how to get there should be preached. But also the fact that there really is a hell should be preached as well. 

[Selah7]

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

- Ezekiel 28:18-19 (KJV)
 

Personally, I believe in the blotted out theory.  

s

[appy]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

I think a Church need to use wisdom on what they preach. They should preach from the Bible. The good news of heaven and how to get there should be preached. But also the fact that there really is a hell should be preached as well. 

 

I NEVER said a pastor should not preach from the bible nor did I say a pastor should avoid talking about hell, NOT at all! What Starise pointed to was the ALL law and condemning style of preaching that was designed frighten people into believing in God. There is a right and wrong way to share the gospel message.

It is not possible to share the good news of the gospel without bringing up both sin and hell into the conversation. Just saying “Jesus died for you” is meaningless to an unbeliever unless you also say why.

 

The following an example of a Preacher giving “fire and brimstone” sermon.

Your gonna burn in hell!!!!!! Change ye ways... or your gonna buurrrnnn!!!! Burn, I tell you!!!!  Wash ye hands you sinners!!!! There is sulfur, fire and brimstone!!!! Beware!!!! Misery !!!!   Beware!!!! You'll be in torture forever!!!!

The above was the style of preaching my mom grew up with. The whole entire sermon was spoken like that! It was nothing but constant condemnation. In fact, every sermon began and ended that way. Who wants to hear a sermon like that? Do you? She didn't hear the gospel message, until someone invited her to a church years later which didn't speak to its congregation in the style of “fire and brimstone”.

 

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

I think a Church need to use wisdom on what they preach. They should preach from the Bible. The good news of heaven and how to get there should be preached. But also the fact that there really is a hell should be preached as well. 

In the very simply 'we are to be like Christ' and He spoke way more about hell than He did about heaven!

[appy]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

In the very simply 'we are to be like Christ' and He spoke way more about hell than He did about heaven!

That is true, he did.

[enoob57]

22 minutes ago, appy said:

That is true, he did.

When we view what He did to deliver us from it; it is no wonder why He warned so much about hell...  He is not willing that any should go there! 

[Dennis1209]

Let’s start from scratch on my opinion:

Our Lord doesn’t need anything, He loves (God is love), wants and desires things. He wanted a family, so He created a spiritual family first, then a flesh and blood family second. Both His spiritual and physical families were (and are) created with eternal life.

Most Christians agree, the Bible does not teach annihilation, but immortality of the spirit and soul. The Bible teaches only two eternal residences His family will reside at, when all is said and done. Eternal separation from Him, a forfeiture of everything good, all blessings, and loss of any and all hope; or to become a “son of God”, and gain an inheritance through acceptance and faith alone.

We know the story, the Lord sends no one to Hell, we send ourselves because of a fallen world. Our Lord provided a remedy for that and bought and redeemed us at a great price.

Sin keeps us from the presence of God, there will be no sin in the eternal state. I see implications of Hell all throughout the Old Testament. God Himself provide the first animal sacrifice for Adam & Eve and covered them. These sacrifices continued throughout the entire O.T. period, until the One final sacrifice for all time came.

Had the Lord not provided a temporary covering for their sins, or they rejected and did not participate in this animal sacrifice covering, what was their eternal fate and destiny?

Our Lord Jesus spoke much more about Hell than He did Heaven. I suppose there is a lesson on that?

This is serious subject matter. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone say to another, “go to hell.” You don’t say or wish that to your worst enemy. People cannot even grasp the concept of how long eternity is, as well as eternal separation from God, and nothing “good” forever. There is nothing worse that can be spoken to another human being, wishing them eternal damnation.

To be brief, I’m omitting supporting scripture citing my thoughts about Hell. I believe Hell can be compared to a jail, a temporary hold until judgment and sentencing. It’s apparent there are different levels of Hell, along with pain, torment and suffering.

Would it be fair if a man tried to live a moral life, and produced many good works in his life time? Getting the same punishment, as say Stalin or Hitler? No, the condemned will also be judged according to their works while on this earth.

Okay, maybe one Bible scripture: Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This implies righteous judgment, an appropriate and proportional punishment.

Hades, the abyss, and the bottomless pit seem to be different levels of the temporary and current jail (Hell). The bottomless pit most likely refers to the center of the earth, the farthest one can go down. Being positioned there, there is no down, only up.

Alright you got me, one more scripture pertaining to the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 14:10 (KJV) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

We are not told much or anything about the eternal Lake of Fire, and it’s all speculation in my thinking.

Because the New Earth and the New Jerusalem will be our eternal home, Heaven coming to earth and God dwelling here. With the language used in the above verse, that excludes the presence of the saints. Leads me to speculated, the Lake of Fire may not be on or in the Earth?

 

[Dennis1209]

On 1/21/2022 at 9:48 PM, Starise said:

Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in.

Morning Starise,

I agree, I think it has a dual application. In addition to where they will find themselves in Hell weeping and gnashing their teeth in torment and loss of all hope. I think they are still in defiance and anger to God.

It seems to also imply anger, rebellion and dismay of earth-dwellers. We are starting to see it in our generation, and it looks to get progressively worse through the seven-year Tribulation. 

Man's anger and shaking their fist at God, and crying about the Lord's wrath and judgment starting to come down.

Their gall, anger and audacity at Armageddon, to gather and shake their fists at God, thinking they can standup against their Lord and Creator is astonishing.  

[Dennis1209]

20 hours ago, Jayne said:

Just because these books were attached to the Jewish canon in the Septuagint does not makes them Jewish scripture, does not make them Christian scripture, does not make them truth.

They were "attached" to the Jewish canon, not intermingled.  It's like someone printed a copy of War and Peace and attaching the Cat in the Hat along with it.

Jesus referred to the inspired Jewish canon as "Moses and the prophets".  There were no prophets when the Apocrypha was written.  The Apocrypha itself says that.

I've said this countless times.  If you have read the Bible, then you know the Apocrypha contains lies and contradiction TO the Bible.  Gross, obvious, and many.  Either the Bible is truth or the Apocrypha is true.  Since they oppose each other, they cannot both be truth.

The Apocrypha teaches:

• salvation by works
• salvation by giving of alms or money
• pre-existence of souls before we are formed in our mother's wombs
• paying money for the salvation of those already dead
• prayers for salvation of the dead
• wives's sins are worse than a husband's sins and all sin originated from Eve alone
• the birth of a daughter is a loss to a man
• the Apocrypha itself admits there were no prophets of God when it was written [the "silent" 400 years between the Old and New Testament]
• that God created everything from already existing matter
• driving demons away from people by seemingly "magical" arts for lack of a better word - taking organ meat from fish and burning it over coals
• purgatory
• refusal to help one's "enemies" and holding back bread and help

These all alone contradict God and his Word.

I'll not likely convince you.  But I encourage you to read the Bible for yourself and see the truth.

Good morning, Jayne

I agree with you, only our Bible is inspired, inerrant and infallible. I have a question for you, and would also like to comment.

The question is, do you consider the (roughly 285 B.C.) Septuagint translation is inspired, inerrant and infallible? I mention that because there are large inconsistencies between it and the Masoretic Texts translations. An example being, the longevity of genealogies in years. One of the two translations took liberties citing the copies or original texts that were available at the time.

Our Bibles mention and refer to many other non-canonical books, i.e.:

1 Enoch (Jude & Peter)

Memorial Book ~ Exodus 17:14

Book of Remembrance ~ Malachi 3:16

Book of the Wars of the Lord ~ Numbers 21:14

Book of the Covenant ~ Exodus 24:7

Book of Law ~ Deut. 17:18; 28:58; 29:21

Book of Jasher ~ 2 Samuel 1:18

Book of the Acts of Soloman ~ 1 Kings 11:41

Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel ~ 1 Kings 14:19

Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah ~ 1 Kings 15:23

Book of the Covenant ~ 2 Kings 23:2

Book of Samuel & Gad the Seer ~ 1 Chronicles 29:29

Book of Nathan the Prophet ~ 2 Chronicles 9:29

Book of Shemaiah the Prophet and Iddo the Seer ~ 2 Chronicles 12:15

Many of the O.T. patriarchs from Adam, to Noah, to the end of the O.T. recorded many things, and were generationally passed down. If our Bible quotes them or mentions them, is it not an invitation to read them if they survived and are in existence? 

What about the discovery and use of the Dead Sea Scrolls? A number of Bible translations have been revised, removing many of the italics in them and amending them. We now have some of the missing pieces of manuscripts from the Essene's. Many believe Isaiah is talking about the discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls:

Isaiah 29:4 (KJV) And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Pseudepigraph, the Apocrypha, Josephus and other ancient texts, are useful for gleaning additional historical facts, what the people thought, understood and believed during their day. 

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The same would hold true if our Bible contained more information and expanded. Our Bible would be a library of countless volumes. 

My opinion is; if our Bible quotes or mentions an outside secular or Jewish source, it gives us license to read it, to give us additional history, and what people did, thought, understood, and believed.