The Last trump

[The Light]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:36 PM, truth7t7 said:

"Last Day" of the great feast, self explanatory 

John 7:37KJV

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Exactly. Last day before wrath. Last day at the 7th trumpet. Last day at the end of the millennium (no need to tell me there is not a millennial as the Word says there is), Last day when the fullness of the Gentiles occurs. Last day of the week, last day of the month, last day of the year and the list goes on and on and on. And yet you claim there is only one last day.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Exactly. Last day before wrath. Last day at the 7th trumpet. Last day at the end of the millennium (no need to tell me there is not a millennial as the Word says there is), Last day when the fullness of the Gentiles occurs. Last day of the week, last day of the month, last day of the year and the list goes on and on and on. And yet you claim there is only one last day.

Yes there will be only "one" Last Day just as scripture reaches

The Lord will raise all believers on the Last Day, with no other Days  following

John 6:40KJV

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All will be judged on the Last Day, with no Days to follow

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[The Light]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:01 PM, transmogrified said:

 

Here are a couple of other translations of this verse:

NIV-Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Aramaic Bible

And the many who sleep in the dust shall be awakened, these to the life of eternity, and those to loss and to the shame of their companions for eternity

Literal Standard Version

And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground awake, some to continuous life, and some to reproaches—to continuous abhorrence.

Youngs Literal

And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground awake, some to continuous life, and some to reproaches—to continuous abhorrence.

The word 'many' is being used as what is called a synecdoche, which is a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole.

For example when Paul said 'Jesus died for the sins of many..' he did not mean he died for quite a lot of people, but not for everyone. 

Or when he said he gave his life a ransom for many, he did not mean his life was a ransom for some of us, but not for all of us, even though there are other contexts in which the word 'many' does not mean all.

Like when it says 'many false prophets shall arise and deceive many,' it does not mean all people are false prophets or that  all will be deceived.

In one familiar phrase it is said 'a word is known by the company it keeps.'

Romans 5:15 -But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Here again we ask, were there just quite a few of us that were dead in sins, or were we all dead in sins...? of course we all were dead in sins, even though it just said many were dead, and of course his grace is available to all even though it said it had abounded unto many.

The Greek word for 'many' is #4183 and it is never translated 'all' in any text. There is another Greek word for 'all' and it is #3956 but it is never translated 'many'. 

So why didn't he just use the word 'all' when he said he would give his life a ransom for 'many?' Because the word 'many' is describing another aspect of the word that the word 'all' may not be conveying.

In other words, if I said 'I took all the eggs out of the carton...' I would have been saying there were 12 eggs I took, but thats not really very many compared to all the eggs in the world. 

But when scripture says he died for many, and we also know he died for all, it is implying the amount of people he died for is very large. In like manner, when it says 'multitudes that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...' he is meaning the there is a large amount of people who are sleeping in the dust of the earth who will awake, not meaning only part of them will awake and part of them will not.

So how can we be sure a certain word is being used as a synecdoche instead of its normal meaning? We can follow it out to its logical conclusion and see if it works.

So lets say we decide the word 'many' means that Jesus only died for quite a few of us, but not for all of us. We say we are going to stick to the literal meaning of the word and will not budge from it because 'that's what it says and that's what it means.'  Ok. A person can do that but it will lead one into a direct contradiction with what Jesus said in other verses where he unequivocally stated he died for all...such as 1 John 2:2-

"And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world." What happens to the honest person? He is forced to admit the word 'many' can not be understood in its normal meaning but that it is being used as a synecdoche.

So lets get back to Dan. 12:2. How do I know for sure he is using the word 'many' in this sense and not in its normal usage? Just like when we were looking at how to determine whether Jesus was using the normal meaning of the word 'many' or if meant 'all' we have to go to other scriptures to get confirmation.

But first, lets assume he really meant only many would be raised. It does not tell us that the righteous part would be raised and the wicked part would be left, because out of this 'many' that would be resurrected, he said some of them would be unto life, and some of them would be unto condemnation.

This leads us into a huge problem not being addressed in any construct...who is proposing some righteous and some wicked will be resurrected at the second coming? No one. Why? Because we have Jesus saying ALL that believe on me will be raised at the last day...this means there are no righteous person in any grave anywhere at the last day. What does that mean? It means the phrase 'some to life' cannot mean there are still some righteous people who were not resurrected at the last day.

So lets take the 'some to condemnation' phrase and see if it can be understood this way. Who argues that some of the wicked dead will be resurrected at the Last day, but some of them will remain in the grave? No one, but even if they did, we have a scripture that would completely contradict this idea in John 12:47:

"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him; the word that I have spoken to him the same shall judge him in the last day."

Who are they that reject Jesus and do not receive his words? These are the wicked. Just as Jesus described the righteous, he is here describing the wicked. He is not describing part of the wicked, this is a description of a wicked person and it is these people who he said would be judged at the last day. They of course will have to be resurrected before they will be judged, but he specifically said they would be judged on the Last Day, the same Last Day that Jesus said he would resurrect all that believe on him.

So what did we find out in the above discourse? We found out the word 'many' cannot be taken in its normal meaning without directly contradicting the plain meaning of other scriptures.

Just like it is not a sin to say Jesus died for all, even though there are scriptures showing he died for many, it is not a sin to say all that are sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake, and that some of them will be righteous, and some of them will be wicked, even though it uses the word 'many' and not 'all.'

We know there is such a thing as a synecdoche and that it is a figure of speech that is used in both the Hebrew and Greek language. 

Here is an example of how the word 'many' is used in Hebrew as a synecdoche in the same way it was used in the Greek in Isaiah 53:12:

"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The word 'many' in Isaiah 53:12 is the exact same word used for 'many' in Daniel 12:3...it is #7227 in Strongs and means the following:

much, many, great, abundant...

So why doesn't it say 'all'? Because it is being used in this context to show the quantity of the people he bare the sins for was great, while in other contexts the word 'all' is used to show everyone was included and no one was excepted. 

So to give us some more confirmation lets look at another scripture in Paul's writings that shows the wicked will be judged when Jesus comes.

2 Thess. 1 Paul was addressing the saints about the tribulations they were going through because of wicked men persecuting them at that time.

Paul is telling them in verse 6 that it would be a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who were troubling them at that time.

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you:"

He tells them in verse 8 that God would take vengeance on  those that know not God and do not obey the gospel with flaming fire, and that they would be punished with everlasting fire from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power....but then WHEN does he say he will do this?

Verse 10) WHEN HE SHALL COME to be glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe...IN THAT DAY.

So Paul is not telling them these wicked men that were troubling them would be punished 1000 years after Jesus comes, but rather specifically says they will be punished with everlasting fire WHEN HE COMES.

So again, they cannot be punished without first being resurrected and judged so it is apparent they are also resurrected at the Second Coming, or the Last Day, just as it shows in the analogy of the wheat and tares...both are resurrected and judged at the harvest which is the end of this age.

Lule 9:26

1) Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the son of man be ashamed, WHEN HE SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY...." (not 1000 years after he comes in own glory)

Matthew 26:64 

2) "...Hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting on on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (This was spoken to Caiphas who was a wicked man and yet Jesus said he would see him when he comes in the clouds...he cannot see him if he is not resurrected until 1000 years after he comes in the clouds of heaven.)

 Matthew 13:30

3) "Let them both (wheat and tares) grow together UNTIL the harvest...and in the time of harvest  (Not 1000 years after the harvest) the son of man shall send forth his angels and gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them that do iniquity (the wicked) and shall cast them into a furnace of fire...(these are cast into the fire at the same time the righteous are rewarded...at the Second Coming.) 

4) Matthew 13:47-50

"The kingdom of God is like unto a net....gathered of every kind (not just the righteous, but also the wicked) ...when it was full they drew to shore and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away...so shall it be in the end of the age....not at the end of the next age...the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into a furnace of fire....(this is taking place at the Second Coming, not at the end of the 1000 years) 

5)Matthew 25:14-30

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man who traveling into a far country who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods...he gave to one 10, 5, 2, and 1...and after a long time the lord of those servants COMETH (Second Coming, Jesus goes into heaven and after a long time he COMES AGAIN) he gave rewards to all and then he came to the wicked and slothful servant who buried what God had given him...what happened to the wicked servant? He said 'cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (When did he deal with ALL these servants? He dealt with them all WHEN HE CAME...not the righteous at one time and the wicked servant 1000 years later) 

6) 2 Tim. 4:2

   "and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick (living) and the dead AT HIS APPEARING AND KINGDOM...(The 'dead' here is not just the righteous dead, but rather the phrase 'the dead' refers to all those that are in the graves just like John 5:28 stated)

7) John 5:28 -

"The hour comes in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...some to life and some to shame..." (There is not one voice for the righteous at one time and another voice for the wicked at another time....but they all hear the same voice at the same time and come forth)

8) Rev. 1:7

"Behold he cometh with clouds, and EVERY EYE shall see him, even THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM..." (Those that pierced him were wicked and have been dead for hundreds of years...in order for them to see him they will have to be resurrected...not just righteous...this is the Second Coming when he is talking about him coming in the clouds...not at the end of the 1000 years)

Thee are other scriptures, but I am just giving you some other references to assure you that all of the dead, both good and bad are those who will be resurrected in Dan. 12 and at what time...all these scriptures are pointing to the exact same resurrection that takes place at the Second Coming...

As I said, nothing in the above scriptures is to be taken that there is not another resurrection at the end of the 1000 years...these are all pertaining to the righteous and wicked who will be resurrected at the Second Coming...those resurrected at the Great White Throne are a different group of people who live from the time of the Second coming to the end of the 1000 years, both good and bad.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

Wow Gary. Very thorough and well written. Nice job. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I wanted to read your post many times and let it soak in and read it again before commenting, as there was so much material.

So let's deal with the facts regarding "many will be raised" You point out this it says that Jesus died for the sins of many, and Jesus died for the sins of all. But what actually happens. Jesus dies for the sins of "many". The many are those that accept Him as Lord. 

The first problem that we have is that you believe that the end of the age is at the 7th trumpet. And you think that the Lord returns then (which He does). I believe the end of the age occurs at the 6th seal.

Matt 24

29(((((((((( Immediately after the tribulation))))))))) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 does not occur at Rev 19, it occurs at Rev 6.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as we can see in the above scriptures. The RETURN OF JESUS at the SIXTH SEAL is the end of the age. THEN the wrath of God begins.

What do you make of this verse?

Rev 9

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

 

[kenny2212]

On 2/23/2022 at 7:07 PM, The Light said:

You point out this it says that Jesus died for the sins of many, and Jesus died for the sins of all. But what actually happens. Jesus dies for the sins of "many". The many are those that accept Him as Lord. I believe the end of the age occurs at the 6th seal.

Matt 24

29(((((((((( Immediately after the tribulation))))))))) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 does not occur at Rev 19, it occurs at Rev 6.

The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as we can see in the above scriptures. The RETURN OF JESUS at the SIXTH SEAL is the end of the age. THEN the wrath of God begins.

 

Hello The Light,

Jesus died for the sins of all. John 3:16(NKJV) - 

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Whoever means anyone.

Also I disagree that anything(including the wrath of God) happens after the end of the age. The "end of the age" is simply what it states - the end. If the wrath of God happens after the end of the age, then the end of the age is not the end. You get what I'm saying?

Your view is very similar to Post-Trib. I don't agree that the end of the age occurs at 6th seal. I agree that Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Rev. 6:12-14. But the "angels gathering the elect" is the rapture. It can't be the end of the age/Jesus' 2nd coming because no believer would remain for the Sheep and Goat Judgement. The Sheep and Goat Judgement occurs after the Battle of Armageddon and before the millennial reign. The Sheep(living believers that lived through the tribulation)and resurrected(believers that died during the tribulation)believers enter the millennial reign. Also there would be no one to populate the millennium if the end of age happened at Rev. 6(if the end of the age happens at Rev. 6 as you say)

Thanks for reading.

Edited February 24, 2022 by kenny2212

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

So let's deal with the facts regarding "many will be raised" You point out this it says that Jesus died for the sins of many, and Jesus died for the sins of all. But what actually happens. Jesus dies for the sins of "many". The many are those that accept Him as Lord. 

Hello again...:)

Quote

But what actually happens. Jesus dies for the sins of "many". The many are those that accept Him as Lord.    

The premise here about Jesus dying for many is not based upon who would accept Him, but rather that Jesus died for many, whether they would accept him or not.

The scripture in 1 John 2:2 clarifies this:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins (the believers) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (the unbelievers)."

Where he says he died for many and then said he died for all conveys both aspects of what is being said...the word 'many' confirms the fact that the amount of people he died for is very large, and the word 'all' confirms the fact that he died for everyone. 

In other words, the word 'many' can take us so far, but not far enough to completely mean 'all,' and the word 'all' is not able to show us the amount of people involved, but when we say that he both died for 'many' and he also died for 'all' then the true scope of what we are talking about comes into view.

Seeing that both words are descriptive terms of the same thing, we cannot use the word 'many' to dis-annul the fact that all are involved, and likewise we cannot use 'all' to dis-annul the fact that the amount of people we are talking about is large.  

7 hours ago, The Light said:

The first problem that we have is that you believe that the end of the age is at the 7th trumpet. And you think that the Lord returns then (which He does). I believe the end of the age occurs at the 6th seal.

To establish both the good and bad are resurrected at the end of the age, let us assume for the time that the end of the age happens at the 6th seal, and we can come back and look more closely at the 6th seal in a bit.

The way the resurrection of both the good and the bad is shown to occur at the same time is by first establishing the time frame in which the righteous will be resurrected. This is easily shown to be at the last day in which all the believers are resurrected which is also at the Second Coming.

This resurrection of all believers is established to occur on the last day as shown below in John 6

1) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him will be raised on the last day...

2) All those whom God has drawn will be raised on the last day

3) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood will be raised on the last day

4) All them who God has given to Christ will be raised on the last day

Who is being described above?

1) All the saints who have ever died from the time of Adam until the Second Coming

When does this scripture say all these will be resurrected?

2) At the last day.

If the resurrection of the righteous occurs at the last day, and the wicked are also shown to be resurrected at this same time, then it can be concluded that both the wicked and the righteous will be resurrected at the Second Coming.

Does the scripture show both good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming? Yes it does.

Daniel 12:3 says 'Many of them which sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life and some to shame and contempt.'

The word 'many' is descriptive in that that the amount of people who will be resurrected at this time will be large, but it does not, in and of itself, establish the fact that 'all' will be resurrected at this time.

A synecdoche is a figure of speech in which 'a part is made to represent the whole, or vice versa.' The way to show whether this word 'many' is being used in its normal sense or if it is being used to mean  that 'all' will be resurrected at this time is by looking at other scriptures.

We know from Daniel 12: 6-7 that the angel told him this resurrection previously stated would be finished by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast:

Daniel 12:6-

'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?' (One of which was the resurrection)

The angel answers the question in Dan. 12:7-

"...It shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." 

This means the resurrection stated here will be finished by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast, which is also at the Second Coming.

So now that we know WHEN this resurrection will take place, we now need to find out WHO will be resurrected. Will it be ALL of the dead or MANY of the dead?

It was previously shown that 'many' means there will be a large number resurrected, and we know ALL the righteous will be resurrected on the Last day, so this would establish the fact that the 'many' of them who were righteous would also mean that 'all' of the righteous would be resurrected even though the word 'many' was used.

And we can also know that when it says 'many' of the wicked will be resurrected that what is meant is that 'all' of the wicked will be resurrected by looking at other scriptures on this same subject.

First lets establish the time frame:

In Daniel three specific events are shown to occur when the man of sin comes to his end at the Second Coming:

The man in Dan. 11:45 who plants the tabernacle of his palaces between the seas in the glorious holy mountain, and who comes to his end and none helps him,  must be understood to be the man of sin, the beast, the son of perdition or the Anti-Christ.

The reason this man must be identified to be the man of sin is because of the time frame in which he comes to his end.  This time is unequivocally shown to occur at the same time that Michael stands up, and is unequivocally shown to occur at the same time that Israel is delivered and is also unequivocally shown to occur at the time of great trouble. Here is how it reads:

Dan. 11:45 "And he  shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain, yet he shall come to his end and none shall help him."

There are three specific events shown to occur when this man comes to his end. The reason we know they occur at the same time is because the scripture plainly uses the phrase 'AT THAT TIME.'

Here is how it reads:

AT THAT TIME: (That this man comes to his end)

1) Michael stands up

AT THAT TIME: (That this man comes to his end)

2) Israel is delivered

AT THAT TIME: (That this man comes to his end)

3) There will be a time of great trouble

AT THAT TIME: (That this man comes to his end)

4) The resurrection occurs

Seeing that the time frame in which this resurrection is to occur is shown to be WHEN the man of sin comes to his end, we know that anyone who is included in it will not be resurrected 1000 years later than when this man comes to his end.

We can also know the man who comes to his end can be none other than the man of sin, for no one in  history can be linked to come to his end when the specified events are shown to occur, for they have not yet happened.

The events specified to occur in Daniel are linked together using the phrase 'At that time.'

The word 'then' is also used in other scriptures to show when one event occurs something else will also occur 'at that same time,' or 'immediately after.' 

See how the harvest of the wheat and tares are shown to occur at the same time:

Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world." (Age)

The word 'THEN' is now used to show the righteous are also resurrected and rewarded at the same time:

Matthew 13:40 "THEN shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their father..." 

The definition of 'then' is 'at the same time,' or 'immediately after.'

Then- (Websters) 1) 'At that time, (referring to a time specified, either past or future) 2) Soon afterward, or immediately; next, afterward 3. At another time

As shown, one definition of 'then' is 'at another time,' however, this must be taken within the context of what is being said and can not be arbitrary.

For example when the sheep and goats are judged, it says he first says something to the sheep and THEN he says something to the goats. It is acknowledged he said something first to the sheep and then later (or at another time) he said something to the goats, but the whole dialogue is within the time frame of 'When the Son of man comes...' and cannot be construed to mean he said something to the sheep and then 1000 years later said something to the goats. Why? Because it says both the sheep and the goats are gathered before him 'when he comes,' and he does not come at the end of the 1000 years.

So in summary:

Matthew 25:31-46 

1) WHEN the Son of man shall come...this establishes the time frame to be the Second Coming, not at the end of the 1000 years

2) THEN (At the Second Coming) shall he sit in the throne of his kingdom...

3) And THEN (At the Second Coming) shall he say to those on his right hand...Come ye blessed of my father into the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...the righteous are resurrected and judged 

4) And THEN (At the Second Coming) shall he say to them on his left hand...depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...the wicked are resurrected and judged 

The Ten talents analogy: Matthew 25:15

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man traveling into a far country who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods...and after a long time the Lord of those servants COMES (Second Coming) and reckons with them."

To those servants who were profitable with what he gave them he says 'Well done thou good and faithful servants...enter into the joy of the Lord.

To the servant who was unfaithful he says 'Thou wicked and slothful servant..."and was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is evident the righteous are not reckoned with at the Second Coming and the wicked 1000 years later. 

Other Examples:

The wheat and tares were  resurrected and judged  at the Second Coming.

The good and bad fish were resurrected, and judged at the Second Coming.

The profitable and unprofitable servants were resurrected and judged at the Second Coming.

The sheep and the goats were resurrected and judged at the Second Coming.

All that were in the graves were resurrected and judged at the Second Coming.

The living and the dead were resurrected and judged at the Second Coming.

From these and other scriptures, it can be concluded that when Daniel said that 'many' of them that sleep in the dust of the earth will awake it is understood that 'all' of them who sleep in the dust of the earth will be resurrected at that time. The word 'many' is showing us that  the amount of those who will be resurrected will be large, while other scriptures using the word 'all' is showing us that none will be excluded. 

In other settings it can be seen from the context that both the good and the bad are resurrected and judged at the same time, and in other settings the word 'the dead' is used to denote all those who are dead and not just the righteous dead.

Other scriptures show that:

1) Caiphas, who was a wicked man would see Jesus when he comes in the clouds...this cannot happen unless he is first resurrected...Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years so he wouldn't see him if he was not resurrected until that time.

2) John said he comes with clouds, and every eye would see him, even those that pierced him. Those that pierced him would not see him when he came in the clouds if they were not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years.

3) Jesus said if any one was ashamed of him and of his words, that he would be ashamed of him when he comes in all his glory...he does not come in all his glory at the end of the 1000 years

4) Jesus said 'Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me...to give unto every man according to his works...he cannot reward every man at his coming if the wicked dead are not raised until 1000 years after his coming.

5) Jesus said he that rejects me and receives not my words that his words would judge him at the last day...the same last day in which the righteous are resurrected and judged.

6) Paul said God would judge with everlasting fire those who were persecuting the Thessalonians when he comes to be admired in all those who believe...not at the end of the 1000 years.

The conclusion of the matter concerning the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming, is that both good and bad are resurrected, judged and rewarded when Jesus comes, and there is a separate resurrection for the good and the bad that will take place at the end of the 1000 years for those who lived and died during that period of time.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[other one]

I just can't help it, but every time I see this thread, what comes to mind is "Barron"?

[other one]

Somehow I don't think you understand who Barron is.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

Your view is very similar to Post-Trib.

Hello Kenny,

My view is similar to post trib because there is a post trib or prewrath rapture. Those post tribbers and pre wrathers have it exactly right that there will be a rapture at the end of the tribulation, before the wrath of God.

What they don't understand is that it is not the Church being raptured. It is the twelve tribes across the earth being raptured. The 144,000 from the 12 tribes are the first fruits of this harvest.

The Church is already raptured and in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel begins. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel as God turns His attention toward the Jews after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

I don't agree that the end of the age occurs at 6th seal. I agree that Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Rev. 6:12-14. But the "angels gathering the elect" is the rapture.

Yes, the angels gathering the elect FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH is a rapture. And this rapture occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. I already showed you that Matt 24's coming of Jesus lines up perfectly with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as the cosmic signs of the sun being darkened, the mo0n not giving light and the stars falling from heaven.

We can also see this coming of Jesus that occurs at the 6th seal in Rev 14. Note the coming occurs just before the wrath of God which occurs when the 7th seal is opened.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

It can't be the end of the age/Jesus' 2nd coming because no believer would remain for the Sheep and Goat Judgement. The Sheep and Goat Judgement occurs after the Battle of Armageddon and before the millennial reign.

There are going to be plenty of dead yet to rise after the dead in Christ rise and the Church rises. Then there is the harvest at the 6th seal which we see in Rev 14. Jesus says the end of the age happens at the 6th seal. We know because of the cosmic signs. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

So you say there would be no believer at the sheep and goat judgement. Is there a scripture that says he is separating believers from unbelievers or is he separating those who have done good from those who have done evil? What of all those who have never heard the Gospel? How can they be believers?

Dan 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And that is why many of them that sleep in the ground will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Those that awake in Daniel 12 have accepted or rejected the Gospel. Those that remain in ground will be there to rise for the sheep and goat judgement.

 

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

The Sheep(living believers that lived through the tribulation)and resurrected(believers that died during the tribulation)believers enter the millennial reign.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matt 24

29((( Immediately after the tribulation)))) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 does not occur at Rev 19, it occurs at Rev 6.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

 

Also there would be no one to populate the millennium if the end of age happened at Rev. 6. 

Thanks for reading.

There is the remnant of the nation of Israel that remains on the earth through the wrath of God. They are in a place of protection. There is also those that never got a chance to accept or reject the Gospel that were of the sheep.

[other one]

13 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Who is Barron? 

LoL   Donald Trump's youngest son.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, other one said:

LoL   Donald Trump's youngest son.

THE TIME TRAVELER.