Revelation 9 - Locusts reference

[truth7t7]

26 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Dennis1209.

No, sir. One cannot just white-wash the whole thing and call it all "symbolic."

Look at the text in the KJV:

Revelation 9:1-12 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 

[So, the first analogy is not about the fifth messenger, the "star," the sky, the earth, the key, or the bottomless pit. The first analogy is that ...

the smoke out of the pit IS AS the smoke of a great furnace.

Then, it goes back to the fact that the smoke from the pit darkens the sun and the air. 

-o-

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 

[Here, the second analogy is that ...

the power of the locusts WAS AS the power of the scorpions of the earth.

Notice that John did NOT say that ANYTHING was like the locusts or that the locusts were like ANYTHING!]

-o-

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 

[Now, John said that the locusts were commanded ...

1. Not to hurt the grass of the earth (odd for modern locusts)
2. Not to hurt any green thing (again, odd for modern locusts)
3. Not to hurt any tree (again, odd for modern locusts)
4. To hurt those men who have not the seal of God in their foreheads
5. Not to kill them
6. To torment them five months

Then we get the third analogy:

The torment of the locusts WAS LIKE the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a person.

-o-

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

[No analogy is found in this verse.]

-o-

[Now comes the description of these locusts:]

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle;
and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold,
and their faces were as the faces of men. 
8 And they had hair as the hair of women,
and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron;
and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 

[So, we have a SERIES of analogies, the fourth analogy to the eleventh analogy:

4. The shapes of the locusts WERE LIKE unto (the shapes of) horses prepared unto battle,
5. The things on their heads WERE AS crowns (stefanoi = victor's wreaths) LIKE gold.
6. The faces of the locusts WERE AS the faces of men.
7. The hair of the locusts (not necessarily on top of their heads) WERE AS the hair of women.
8. The teeth of the locusts WERE AS the teeth of lions.
9. The breastplates (thoraxes) of the locusts WERE AS they were breastplates of iron.
10. The sound of their wings WAS AS the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
11. The tails of the locusts WERE LIKE the tails of scorpions, and LIKE the scorpions, they had stings in their tails.]

-o- 

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

[And, there are no analogies in these last two verses.]

Therefore, as much as it goes against the grain, there's no reason to believe that these locusts were analogous of ANYTHING! They will be LITERAL LOCUSTS!

No analogy here. These will be literal creatures that come upon the earth after it is cracked open by a meteorite. There's no technology or machinery here. These are living beings.

And, prophets of God were TOLD what to write and what NOT to write. Yochanan ("John") was no different here. He even told us that he was not permitted to write down what the seven thunders uttered, for instance. And, in other instances, he was instructed what to write down that he might have otherwise neglected to write.

No. A "Destroyer" may bring "destruction," but not every "destruction" is caused by a "destroyer." In this particular case, the "destruction" is NOT of those whom the locusts attack (they weren't allowed to die, after all), but of THEMSELVES!

First, the "Abyss" (Greek: "abussos" = "no-depth") is NEVER said to be "hell." That comes from a Mediaeval assumption! Don't confuse the words translated "hell" (ge-enna, tartaro-oo, and hadees) with the Lake of Fire. The two things are ENTIRELY different!

Hell (coming from Norse mythology) is unfortunately assigned to these three words:

Ge-enna = Gei-Hinnowm = "The Valley of Hinnowm" outside Jerusalem where the King will establish His Judgment Seat.

Hadees = Sh'owl = the Grave (the "Unseen," the "Asked About"), from which all will be resurrected, although not all at the same time.

Tartaro-oo (a VERB) = "to incarcerate." People typically add too much to the definition of this word. The word was used ONCE in 2 Peter 2:4. I don't know why people INSIST on adding Greek mythology to the term!

Here's what Greek mythology (found at GreekLegendsAndMyths.com) adds to the term:

 

But, see, you are basing this upon the thought that "the bottomless pit [is] as far down as possible, where there is no more down, only up in all directions!" That's not what the word "abussos" means! It doesn't mean "no bottom"; it means "no depth!" Simply put, the depth of the pit was never measured! It had never been sounded!

The pressure at the center of the earth is 365 GPa! The "G" stands for "Giga" which means "BILLION!" Therefore, this is 365 BILLION Pascals of pressure! That's about 3.6 MILLION ATMOSPHERES! It can't even be as far down as the bottom of the mantle before the outer core starts! There, the pressure is STILL about 130 GPa! That's still about 1.28 MILLION ATMOSPHERES of pressure!

Again, it's simpler than that. The poison of an Egyptian scorpion is a NERVE TOXIN! It stuns the nerves, immobilizing the victim! They couldn't even ASK to be killed for mercy's sake! And, they CERTAINLY couldn't carry out their own suicide! They will just lie there and suffer! They will probably be immobilized for the duration of the time, 5 months, until the species dies off.

I missed the scripture that supports your claim "Cracked Open By A Meteorite"?

[angels4u]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Dennis1209.

No, sir. One cannot just white-wash the whole thing and call it all "symbolic."

Look at the text in the KJV:

Revelation 9:1-12 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 

[So, the first analogy is not about the fifth messenger, the "star," the sky, the earth, the key, or the bottomless pit. The first analogy is that ...

the smoke out of the pit IS AS the smoke of a great furnace.

Then, it goes back to the fact that the smoke from the pit darkens the sun and the air. 

-o-

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 

[Here, the second analogy is that ...

the power of the locusts WAS AS the power of the scorpions of the earth.

Notice that John did NOT say that ANYTHING was like the locusts or that the locusts were like ANYTHING!]

-o-

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 

[Now, John said that the locusts were commanded ...

1. Not to hurt the grass of the earth (odd for modern locusts)
2. Not to hurt any green thing (again, odd for modern locusts)
3. Not to hurt any tree (again, odd for modern locusts)
4. To hurt those men who have not the seal of God in their foreheads
5. Not to kill them
6. To torment them five months

Then we get the third analogy:

The torment of the locusts WAS LIKE the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a person.

-o-

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

[No analogy is found in this verse.]

-o-

[Now comes the description of these locusts:]

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle;
and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold,
and their faces were as the faces of men. 
8 And they had hair as the hair of women,
and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron;
and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 

[So, we have a SERIES of analogies, the fourth analogy to the eleventh analogy:

4. The shapes of the locusts WERE LIKE unto (the shapes of) horses prepared unto battle,
5. The things on their heads WERE AS crowns (stefanoi = victor's wreaths) LIKE gold.
6. The faces of the locusts WERE AS the faces of men.
7. The hair of the locusts (not necessarily on top of their heads) WERE AS the hair of women.
8. The teeth of the locusts WERE AS the teeth of lions.
9. The breastplates (thoraxes) of the locusts WERE AS they were breastplates of iron.
10. The sound of their wings WAS AS the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
11. The tails of the locusts WERE LIKE the tails of scorpions, and LIKE the scorpions, they had stings in their tails.]

-o- 

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

[And, there are no analogies in these last two verses.]

Therefore, as much as it goes against the grain, there's no reason to believe that these locusts were analogous of ANYTHING! They will be LITERAL LOCUSTS!

No analogy here. These will be literal creatures that come upon the earth after it is cracked open by a meteorite. There's no technology or machinery here. These are living beings.

And, prophets of God were TOLD what to write and what NOT to write. Yochanan ("John") was no different here. He even told us that he was not permitted to write down what the seven thunders uttered, for instance. And, in other instances, he was instructed what to write down that he might have otherwise neglected to write.

No. A "Destroyer" may bring "destruction," but not every "destruction" is caused by a "destroyer." In this particular case, the "destruction" is NOT of those whom the locusts attack (they weren't allowed to die, after all), but of THEMSELVES!

First, the "Abyss" (Greek: "abussos" = "no-depth") is NEVER said to be "hell." That comes from a Mediaeval assumption! Don't confuse the words translated "hell" (ge-enna, tartaro-oo, and hadees) with the Lake of Fire. The two things are ENTIRELY different!

Hell (coming from Norse mythology) is unfortunately assigned to these three words:

Ge-enna = Gei-Hinnowm = "The Valley of Hinnowm" outside Jerusalem where the King will establish His Judgment Seat.

Hadees = Sh'owl = the Grave (the "Unseen," the "Asked About"), from which all will be resurrected, although not all at the same time.

Tartaro-oo (a VERB) = "to incarcerate." People typically add too much to the definition of this word. The word was used ONCE in 2 Peter 2:4. I don't know why people INSIST on adding Greek mythology to the term!

Here's what Greek mythology (found at GreekLegendsAndMyths.com) adds to the term:

 

But, see, you are basing this upon the thought that "the bottomless pit [is] as far down as possible, where there is no more down, only up in all directions!" That's not what the word "abussos" means! It doesn't mean "no bottom"; it means "no depth!" Simply put, the depth of the pit was never measured! It had never been sounded!

The pressure at the center of the earth is 365 GPa! The "G" stands for "Giga" which means "BILLION!" Therefore, this is 365 BILLION Pascals of pressure! That's about 3.6 MILLION ATMOSPHERES! It can't even be as far down as the bottom of the mantle before the outer core starts! There, the pressure is STILL about 130 GPa! That's still about 1.28 MILLION ATMOSPHERES of pressure!

Again, it's simpler than that. The poison of an Egyptian scorpion is a NERVE TOXIN! It stuns the nerves, immobilizing the victim! They couldn't even ASK to be killed for mercy's sake! And, they CERTAINLY couldn't carry out their own suicide! They will just lie there and suffer! They will probably be immobilized for the duration of the time, 5 months, until the species dies off.

Can't really picture one of those horrible locust around, it will be so scary but not enough to turn the people back to God Actually it will be too late for them to turn to God as by then they took the mark of the beast..

[Michael37]

13 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I missed the scripture that supports your claim "Cracked Open By A Meteorite"?

Maybe it's in the Book of Speculation. 

[Alive]

47 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Maybe it's in the Book of Speculation. 

Exactly!

:-)

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I missed the scripture that supports your claim "Cracked Open By A Meteorite"?

Shalom, truth7t7 and @Michael37.

Okay, once again,

Revelation 9:1-2 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Here's the Greek:

Apokalupsis 9:1-2 (Berean Greek New Testament 2016)

1 Καὶ ὁ πέμπτος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν· καὶ εἶδον ἀστέρα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ πεπτωκότα εἰς τὴν γῆν, καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ἡ κλεὶς τοῦ φρέατος τῆς ἀβύσσου. 2 καὶ ἤνοιξεν τὸ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου· καὶ ἀνέβη καπνὸς ἐκ τοῦ φρέατος ὡς καπνὸς καμίνου μεγάλης, καὶ ἐσκοτώθη ὁ ἥλιος καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ ἐκ τοῦ καπνοῦ τοῦ φρέατος.

Transliterated, we get ...

1 Kai ho pemptos aggelos esalpisen; kai eidon astera ek tou ouranou peptookota eis teen geen, kai edothee autoo hee kleis tou freatos tees abussou. 2 Kai eenoixen to frear tees abussou; kai anebee kapnos ek tou freatos hoos kapnos kaminou megalees, kai eskotoothee ho heelios kai ho aeer ek tou kapnou tou freatos.

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

1 And the fifth messenger sounded[-a-trumpet]; and I-saw a-star out of-the sky fall into the earth, and given to-it the key of-the pit of-the no-depth. 2 And it-opened the pit of-the no-depth; and arose a-smoke out of-the pit like a-smoke of-a-furnace huge, and was-darkened the sun and the air out 0f-the smoke of-the pit.

Every noun in Greek has one of three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter. However, these genders are embedded within the word itself and does NOT reflect the gender of an engendered creature. The word "sunagoogee" ("synagogue") is a feminine word, but it doesn't have a gender and is considered neuter in English. So, the pronoun associated with "sunagoogee" is "autee," which is feminine to agree with the noun, but when translated into English, we would write "it" instead of "she."

The same is true for the Greek word "asteer" ("star"), although it is a masculine word. It's a burning, glowing, melting, evaporating rock (not a true star, which is as big or bigger than our sun) that falls through our atmosphere. Thus, we should translate the pronoun associated with it ("autos," the dative case is "autoo" adding the word "to" or "for" in front of "it") as "it" (or "to it") rather than "he" (or "to him"). 

A hunk of rock that falls into our atmosphere and burns up is called a "meteor." A bigger hunk of rock that doesn't burn up in the atmosphere but falls to the ground and leaves a hole called a "crater," is called a "meteorite!"

This meteorite in Revelation 9 leaves a very deep crater! It probably punches through to a pocket of gases in the crust or the mantle, but its punch releases these locusts. We don't know how deep the hole goes, because the well was never sounded - the pit was never measured for its depth!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Maybe it's in the Book of Speculation. 

Shalom, Michael37.

This by the person who writes, "37 x 3 x 7 = 777 Combined Strength (3) Perfect Completion (7) Quantum Fulfillment (10)." Talk about speculation!

[Alive]

I am encouraged some that it has been acknowleadged that speculation  is evident.

What Truth is inherant in speculation? What can be known?

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Michael37.

This by the person who writes, "37 x 3 x 7 = 777 Combined Strength (3) Perfect Completion (7) Quantum Fulfillment (10)." Talk about speculation!

Nay Sir, 'Tis Biblical Signification you see.

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I am encouraged some that it has been acknowleadged that speculation  is evident.

What Truth is inherant in speculation? What can be known?

I speculate that the only truth inherent in speculation is the truth that it is speculation, and without verification and confirmation and authentication all that may be known is speculative.  

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, Alive said:

I am encouraged some that it has been acknowleadged that speculation  is evident.

What Truth is inherant in speculation? What can be known?

Shalom, Alive.

When the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) gives you peace that all of the pieces fit, there is truth in speculation. When I make a speculation, anything that doesn't line up with what I've learned from Scripture and doesn't match what I've read, nags at me in the back of my mind. To me, that's the Ruwach telling me I'm not right, yet. Go back to the drawing board. When an understanding of a Scripture couldn't possibly line up with all of the 20 to 30 other, unrelated Scriptures, that hinge upon that Scripture, and yet, it DOES line up with every one of them, the piece of the puzzle fits just perfectly within the 21 to 31 Scripture passages.

I also seldom read just a single verse, often never a single chapter! God "blessed" me with the LOVE to read through a dictionary! As a kid, I was CONSTANTLY pouring over the volumes of a set of Compton encyclopedias my parents had bought. I did this FOR FUN! As I grew older and grew in the knowledge of the Scriptures, I transferred this love for reading the dictionary and the encyclopedias to reading the Bible! At first, it was reading through the concordances and dictionaries in the back of the Bible. Now, I will read a whole book of the Bible (not books like Jude but like Isaiah and Ezekiel) in a single sitting because I find it FUN! And, every time I read it again, I find something new, something I missed before!