The Blood of Bulls and Goats.......

[Walter and Deborah]

22 hours ago, Alive said:

As I think I mentioned a week or two ago, my wife and I have been listening to scripture together per Omega's Bible Reading club. We find it best for us to listen to the entire week's worth at a sitting and discuss as we go as questions may arise, or I get a thought I want to express.

We just wrapped up Numbers and started on Deut. and then Mark looking at Jesus' last day to the Cross.

Anyway, we have really enjoyed seeing all the OT expressing Christ in such detail, so we were discussing all of the sacrificed critters and other offerings that God instituted and how when the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in rebellion, those things made a fellowship with and the blessings of God--possible.

I quoted Heb. 10.4 to my wife.

Heb. 10:4 (NAS20S) For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Then I asked her if that is true, as it surely is, then how is it that all that blood worked? I then asked her; since it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, by what mechanism or means could Israel be in a right relationship with God and be blessed when they were loyal?

She knew the answer because of course she has listened to me go on before.

:-)

Grace! The only means by which God has dealt with mankind from his creation till now and forever.

All of that pointing to Christ. The Solution.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away, to wipe out a single sin...or if you will...law.

What say you?

Amen! How interesting as Husband and Wife can come together in unity.

Love, Walter and Debbie

[Walter and Deborah]

50 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I will venture a reason.

The blood of bulls and goats serves TWO purposes.

1. It "ATONES" for sins. The Hebrew word which we render "atone" means to "cover". It is first used in Genesis 6 where Noah had to cover the gopher wood of the Ark on both sides with pitch. The wood was still there but was "covered" - out of sight
2. It cleanses the flesh (Heb.9:13).

For a man to deal with God he (i) must have his sin and sins put away, and (ii) he must cleanse his flesh with a means acceptable to God. Up to John Baptist there were TWO peoples on earth - (i) THE Nations, and (ii) THE Nation of Israel. God had nothing to do with THE Nations unless they came to live within Israel's borders. With Israel God DWELT. One of the functions of the Law was to make the Israelite clean so that he could be HOST to God. There were diverse washings for all classes of Israelite, and there were diverse offerings for each of man's failings, but which also cleansed the FLESH.

From Jesus onward, a THIRD People was added to the earth. God took out of the TWO above, by divine birth, THE NEW MAN called "the Church" This New Man, because they embraced Christ, had their sin and sins put away, had the divine life intrinsically, AND WERE WASHED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Take note: There privileges ARE ONLY AVAILABLE FOR THE CHURCH respectively BELIEVERS IN CHRIST. If you were a Gentile what Christ did DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU. If you are an Israelite the sacrifices cannot remove your sin and sins, but they CAN CLEANSE YOUR FLESH.

Now, let us jump to the Millennium. Who is on earth and what is their status? It is important because Zechariah says that everyone must go up to Jerusalem to have audience with Jesus and worship Him ANNUALLY FOR A THOUSAND YEARS (Isa.2:2, Zech.14:16).

1. The Christian OVERCOMERS will be on earth ruling cities (Lk.19:17-19). Their status is sins forgiven and the FLESH CHANGED to a glorious body like Christ's (1st Cor.15:51, Phil.3:21). Accordingly, they are CLEAN.
2. The Israelites will be in TWO GROUPS. (i) All those who ever died will be in RESURRECTION (Ezek.37, Dan.12:2). Their old bodies are dissolved and they have their resurrection bodies. They are CLEAN. (ii) The Remnant of Israel which survive the Great Tribulation (the 144,000 of Rev.7) will still be in their body of FLESH and BLOOD. Since they never believed, they do NOT enjoy the cleansing that we Christians enjoy now, so they will be UN-CLEAN.
3. The Gentiles who survived the Great Tribulation never believed. They still live in  their body of flesh and blood. They are ALL UN-CLEAN.

How then will those who are UN-CLEAN be made CLEAN to have audience with Emmanuel Jesus? They NEVER BELIEVED in Jesus so they are CANNOT be cleansed by Jesus' blood. They are MADE CLEAN BY THE BLOOD OF THE SACRIFICES. I will repeat that for my opponents. The blood of bulls and goats CANNOT TAKE AWAY SIN AND SINS. But the blood of bulls and goats DOES CLEAN THE FLESH. Sins are one thing, and uncleaness is another. Do not mix them.

And thus we find the priests of Israel exercising animal sacrifices in Israel in the Millennium (See closing Chapters of Ezekiel and Luke 22:15-16).

• SIN and SINS are dealt with by the death of Jesus (Jn.1:29; 1st Jn.2:2).
• The blood of Jesus deals with uncleaness IN THE CHRISTIAN ONLY.
• Resurrection deals with uncleaness because the old body is terminated.
• Animal sacrifices deal with those who are unclean and never believed in Jesus

Amen! Thank you,  interesting

[AdHoc]

23 minutes ago, Walter and Deborah said:

Amen! Thank you,  interesting

Thank you for being open. The matter of cleansing is often confused with being sinful. This causes a conflict in the Christian. But if the matter is dealt with accurately, all is clear. A Jew must bury his father three days before Passover. He is unclean for a week and must do Passover a month later (Nu.9:9-14). Has he sinned? No! the dead made him unclean. Even if he did not bury his father, somebody had to do it, and they would be unclean. Unclean is not the result of sin. It is the result of coming into contact with a defiling situation.

In John 13 our Lord Jesus washed His disciple's feet. Peter tries to stop Him. Our Lord says that if He cannot wash our feet we have "no part with Him". Peter then offers his whole body, but our Lord says that He has made it clean already. Why then wash the feet? It was to show that the Christian, who is not taken out of the world, will walk this defiling earth, but for his relationship with the Father he is clean by Jesus. Only that which has contact with the worldly system must be washed. And then we, if we see our brother defiled by something, we must lovingly get involved to point out the defilement. It might be a business deal on Monday. Or having a drink too much with the "boys" on Tuesday. On Wednesday the deacon of the Church must intervene in a wife battery situation. None of these are sins per se, but the Christian is defiled somehow by the sordidness of the matters. Christian sailors and airline pilots spend a lot of time away from home. They often eat in pubs. They do not sin, but the half-naked girls and the advances of prostitutes is defiling. Such a Christian must be washed in that area - the feet - because he "walked" this earth.

So also Peter as the sheet in Acts.9 is presented. Under Law they are defiling animals. But that which Christ has made clean are clean. In this case it was a pork-eating Gentile - Cornelius. How was he made clean? By his faith in Jesus. Was his neighbor made clean. No. His neighbor did not believe in Jesus, He remains unclean. But nobody has sinned. They have just come into contact with a defiling situation. So, in this way, for audience with God (Jesus as Emanuel living in Jerusalem) the unclean need cleansing. And this is what the animal sacrifices do. My opponents might say that ONLY Jesus can cleanse. But that is just the point. Those Gentiles who must go up to Jerusalem to honor the Lord must be cleansed by something. It CANNOT be Jesus since they are Gentiles and the cleansing work only worked by FAITH (while our Lord Jesus was UNSEEN - Heb.11:1). Thousands upon thousands of Israelites, through 1,600 years of Law, were cleansed by these sacrifices. They work. It is not the optimum way. Faith in Jesus is. But every Fest of Tabernacles in the Millennium, millions of Gentiles (men who never believed) are going to go up to Jerusalem to bow to Emmanuel. How will they be cleansed?

The answer; By the SERVICE to the Temple! (Heb.9:9, 13)

[Riverwalker]

It was the blood of the lamb that provided a yearly stopgap atonement.....until the Lamb Of God who takes away the sin of the world came about

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you in that God deals with His creature in Grace. Why I did not say it outright is your use of the word "solely". You are correct, but it is more than semantics to say that the GROUNDS for grace must be BOUGHT. So I rather addressed God's righteousness, which must be satisfied before grace can be administered. And the price .... ? It was VERY HIGH - the life of suffering and constraint, and the death of His beloved Son Jesus.

I agree with you but would have worded it thus; "God basically deals with His creature in Grace when His righteousness is satisfied."

1. In the case of angels there is no grace. The Lake of Fire is guaranteed for all who rebelled
2. In the case of the serpent there is no grace. He must go on his belly and eat dust forever
3. In the case of demons there is no grace. There is a day when their torment begins
4. In the case of the fish there is no grace. The sea is removed from the Renewed Earth
5. In the case of mankind there is grace - but it must bought and then be released by Faith
6. In the case of Israel there is Grace - but it must be bought and then released by Covenant
7. In the case of the earth there is grace - but polluting sin must be met with retribution on Jesus
8. In the case of the harvest there is grace - but it cost Christ's blood to void the cry of Abel's blood
9. In the case of points 1 to 3 there is grace on the creature because bad government is removed by righteousness
    

Your comments sparked some thoughts. I am not stating this is my view, only a commentary I read that made sense and is plausible. There are several interpretations of what I am about to mention.

The Beasts in Revelation (possibly Cherubim) with the four faces are symbolically described (was like, like, as a). Some scholars surmise these Cherubim are guardians of God’s throne and watchers over creation. Interesting thoughts.

The symbolism may represent the lion watching over the wild animal kingdom. The calf (or Ox) represents the domestic animal and beast of the burden kingdom. Man is self-explanatory, and the eagle represents the wildfowl kingdom.

Still, others suggest the faces may represent the four Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

It seems all of the heavenly hosts have job assignments and responsibilities. Even the word ángelos is not so much of a description as it is a job assignment and title. 

The Lord could have chosen many ways to accomplish His judgment other than the flood. The flood destroyed everything with the breath of life. I define every creature with a windpipe, lungs, and breathes as having the breath of life. Fish and insects do not qualify as having the breath of life.

Most aquatic life was spared and shown mercy. I think during this global judgment, marine life was shown unmerited favor.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I don’t know if I take no more sea as literal or symbolic in context to many other biblical passages to the sea. The sea often illustrates chaos, depths, turmoil, the Abyss, the dwelling of evil spirits, and an untamable place you do not want to be.

If this reasoning is accurate and has merit, the fish and reptile kingdom is absent. Satan’s description is a serpent with reptilian features, I thought that view was interesting and wanted to throw it out there.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Your comments sparked some thoughts. I am not stating this is my view, only a commentary I read that made sense and is plausible. There are several interpretations of what I am about to mention.

The Beasts in Revelation (possibly Cherubim) with the four faces are symbolically described (was like, like, as a). Some scholars surmise these Cherubim are guardians of God’s throne and watchers over creation. Interesting thoughts.

The symbolism may represent the lion watching over the wild animal kingdom. The calf (or Ox) represents the domestic animal and beast of the burden kingdom. Man is self-explanatory, and the eagle represents the wildfowl kingdom.

Still, others suggest the faces may represent the four Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

It seems all of the heavenly hosts have job assignments and responsibilities. Even the word ángelos is not so much of a description as it is a job assignment and title. 

The Lord could have chosen many ways to accomplish His judgment other than the flood. The flood destroyed everything with the breath of life. I define every creature with a windpipe, lungs, and breathes as having the breath of life. Fish and insects do not qualify as having the breath of life.

Most aquatic life was spared and shown mercy. I think during this global judgment, marine life was shown unmerited favor.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I don’t know if I take no more sea as literal or symbolic in context to many other biblical passages to the sea. The sea often illustrates chaos, depths, turmoil, the Abyss, the dwelling of evil spirits, and an untamable place you do not want to be.

If this reasoning is accurate and has merit, the fish and reptile kingdom is absent. Satan’s description is a serpent with reptilian features, I thought that view was interesting and wanted to throw it out there.

I am familiar with the arguments above and have considered them. This is my opinion - which, like any other student's opinion, could be wrong.

The four creatures appear in two books of the Bible, (i) Ezekiel and (ii) Revelation. The circumstances are similar - God's Judgment. In Ezekiel God does one of the saddest things I can think of. He has reached the end of His patience with His People, Israel. The northern kingdom has been dispersed for over a hundred years - never to return, and now God has, as per the curses of the Law, given Judah over to the Babylonians. Now, no matter how big an army Nebuchadnezzar can summon, no single man would be able to touch the Holy of Holies. A million men would be snuffed out in an instant if God is present in the Holy of Holies of the Temple and they tried to enter it. So God must leave His House - the House He had so desired. And you will notice that in the following 70 years of Babylonian captivity, God is never called; "The God of heaven and EARTH". He is only; "The God of Heaven". It is not that He lost power over earth, but that His TESTIMONY in Israel was gone.

But the situation was dire for Judah. God calling them "Lo-ammi" - "you are not my people" is terrifying in itself, but a terrible judgment was about to fall on them where the least would be that the Jewish mothers would kill and eat their babies. For the earth and for God's plan of recovering man via Eve and Abraham, it looked hopeless. And into the scene come the Four Living Creatures.

Scroll forward 2,500 years. The Beast is about to take charge of EARTH, but his power comes from a Cherub - a heavenly creature. Christ has been preached throughout all nations, but men have chosen the Beast. Unlike Nebuchadnezzar, who destroys the Temple, the beast will claim supreme Deity and OCCUPY Gods House. He will blaspheme heaven AND earth. Jesus, having sat in His Father's Throne for 2,000 years, now receives His own throne in Revelation Chapter 4. His first call of duty it to unleash, from heaven, God's wrath on men (as predicted in Romans Chapter 1). Judgment has come, not only on Israel, but on the whole earth AND Heaven. And into this scene of Judgment come the the Four Living creatures. The main difference is that Israel's judgment by Nebuchadnezzar was from earth, so the Four Living Creatures have wheels. In Revelation, the judgment is from heaven, so the Four Living Creatures have an extra set of wings and no wheels.

The scene in Revelation 4 to 6 looks, for all intents and purposes, like the end of the earth and all flesh. God is utterly furious. What can this puny earth do in the face of the ALL-Mighty when He is so angry? Is this the end of all living flesh? So, in order to seek a solution from the Bible - and not privately, we study the four creatures. And a picture emerges.

God made SIX living creatures. (i) Fish, (ii) the wild beasts headed by the lion, (iii) domestic beasts headed by the strong ox, (iv) birds of heaven headed by the eagle, (v) the creeping things and (vi) man. At the end of the Bible FOUR of the SIX are recovered. TWO are never recovered - (i) The fish - for there is no more sea, and (ii) the creeping things who must go on their bellies and eat dust forever. The picture is the same as the picture of the RAINBOW. It is this, that the Four Living Creatures are the PROMISE that God will not utterly destroy all living flesh in His anger IN JUDGMENT. They are GUARANTEE that most of flesh will survive and be restored.

Whether the sea is literally removed I cannot tell. In Parable, the sea represents (i) the power of the Nations, and (ii) Death. Thus we have Baptism - a killing and burying in death waters (Romans 6:1-8). Will this symbol of death - God's last enemy - be removed literally, or is it a parable? I cannot tell. I would favor the symbolic meaning because New Jerusalem is, to my mind, a symbol. But the New (Renewed) EARTH is literal. So take your choice.

God bless.

P.S. I have some sympathy for the idea that they represent the Four Gospels, but they bow down and worship Christ. We have no record of the gospels doing this. But there is something there. Christ is a conquering Lion in Matthew, a serving Ox in Mark, a Man in Luke and an heavenly Eagle in John. But I cannot connect them with the Cherubs without speculation.

Edited March 21, 2022 by AdHoc
spelling & P.S.

[Walter and Deborah]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for being open. The matter of cleansing is often confused with being sinful. This causes a conflict in the Christian. But if the matter is dealt with accurately, all is clear. A Jew must bury his father three days before Passover. He is unclean for a week and must do Passover a month later (Nu.9:9-14). Has he sinned? No! the dead made him unclean. Even if he did not bury his father, somebody had to do it, and they would be unclean. Unclean is not the result of sin. It is the result of coming into contact with a defiling situation.

In John 13 our Lord Jesus washed His disciple's feet. Peter tries to stop Him. Our Lord says that if He cannot wash our feet we have "no part with Him". Peter then offers his whole body, but our Lord says that He has made it clean already. Why then wash the feet? It was to show that the Christian, who is not taken out of the world, will walk this defiling earth, but for his relationship with the Father he is clean by Jesus. Only that which has contact with the worldly system must be washed. And then we, if we see our brother defiled by something, we must lovingly get involved to point out the defilement. It might be a business deal on Monday. Or having a drink too much with the "boys" on Tuesday. On Wednesday the deacon of the Church must intervene in a wife battery situation. None of these are sins per se, but the Christian is defiled somehow by the sordidness of the matters. Christian sailors and airline pilots spend a lot of time away from home. They often eat in pubs. They do not sin, but the half-naked girls and the advances of prostitutes is defiling. Such a Christian must be washed in that area - the feet - because he "walked" this earth.

So also Peter as the sheet in Acts.9 is presented. Under Law they are defiling animals. But that which Christ has made clean are clean. In this case it was a pork-eating Gentile - Cornelius. How was he made clean? By his faith in Jesus. Was his neighbor made clean. No. His neighbor did not believe in Jesus, He remains unclean. But nobody has sinned. They have just come into contact with a defiling situation. So, in this way, for audience with God (Jesus as Emanuel living in Jerusalem) the unclean need cleansing. And this is what the animal sacrifices do. My opponents might say that ONLY Jesus can cleanse. But that is just the point. Those Gentiles who must go up to Jerusalem to honor the Lord must be cleansed by something. It CANNOT be Jesus since they are Gentiles and the cleansing work only worked by FAITH (while our Lord Jesus was UNSEEN - Heb.11:1). Thousands upon thousands of Israelites, through 1,600 years of Law, were cleansed by these sacrifices. They work. It is not the optimum way. Faith in Jesus is. But every Fest of Tabernacles in the Millennium, millions of Gentiles (men who never believed) are going to go up to Jerusalem to bow to Emmanuel. How will they be cleansed?

The answer; By the SERVICE to the Temple! (Heb.9:9, 13)

Thanks.

Love, Walter

[Your closest friendnt]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:37 PM, Sower said:

Looking forward-+-looking back.   Substitutionary.  A temporary covering of sins and to foreshadow the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Leviticus 4:35, 5:10).
My understanding...

I am not sure about your thoughts in the post.

Usually you are clear and easily understood. 

I am wondering why not this time. 

Is it because you are reading the bible and more specifically the Law of Moses and you found out that the sins of the people that were upon them after the end of the ceremonies they were not upon them. 

I am appealing to you as a learn person in the matters of the Law, what happened to the sins of the people at first they were on them and then they are not on them.

What happened to them? Are the sins coming back to them at a later time or not. 

We are not talking about the Israelites before the Law (them also), but about the Israelites after they were given the Law of Moses and the Priesthood and the tent of Testimony and the instructions in the book of Leviticus. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am not sure about your thoughts in the post.

Usually you are clear and easily understood. 

I am wondering why not this time. 

Is it because you are reading the bible and more specifically the Law of Moses and you found out that the sins of the people that were upon them after the end of the ceremonies they were not upon them. 

I am appealing to you as a learn person in the matters of the Law, what happened to the sins of the people at first they were on them and then they are not on them.

What happened to them? Are the sins coming back to them at a later time or not. 

We are not talking about the Israelites before the Law (them also), but about the Israelites after they were given the Law of Moses and the Priesthood and the tent of Testimony and the instructions in the book of Leviticus. 

I quoted Alive who  said   "It is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away, to wipe out a single sin...or if you will...law.

What say you?

My simple understanding of the forgiveness of sin 'covering'  (then) was the OT people's blood offering looked forward to the cross, 
Christ the Savior's perfect blood sacrifice, and we today look back to the cross.
I had understood the animal sacrifice was 'substitutionary'
I am not OT well learned, 'obviously', and defer to your learning/correction.

[Alive]

I think its important and I have been greatly edified to understand the vast scope and depth of God's Grace.

First, he created a universe that pictures Himself for us to live in.

He then made us in His image and breathed into us 'life'.

....all Grace

When Adam fell, He could have spoke it all, including man out of existence and started over---because be sure, He would have His family.

However, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. He provided Grace before He made it and us.

He allows sinful fallen mankind (those outside Christ) to live, to have babies, to love, to enjoy family and friends and to enjoy this magnificent earth.

Those 'In Christ of the Father", he has translated from the domain of darkness into His Kingdom.

Col. 1:13 (NAS20S) For He rescued us from the   domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of   His beloved Son,

Always Grace = unmerited favor.

Abraham represents favor before God by Grace through Faith. The Faith itself a Gift. A merciful Gracious Gift.

The law and all of those sacrifices and offerings can never erase/bridge the gulf between fallen Adam and His Maker. All of those things both point to and represent Christ the Lamb of God. It only appeared to some that all those sacrifices took away sin. The scripture is clear--it is impossible. What was going on there is a lesson pointing to Christ and a vast expression of unmerited favor.

No amount of the 'so called' good of fallen man or his works can bridge the gap.

Why? It is basically a matter of death and life. Everything that fallen man does is 'death'. It is dead and is derived from death.

Every OT character in the record that we admire or not, was dealt with by God with Grace. To say different is to say that the efforts of man can accomplish what only One could and did. Christ. He removed the enmity. He took it away. He paid the price for all corruption, all sin, all disloyalty. He took on Himself the unmeasurable weight of all of it.

Grace = unmerited favor. Not semi-merited favor. Not only for the really bad folks, but for every single son of adam.

Grace.

Grace before day one. Grace on day one and every single day since. Always Grace. Always Christ.....our Creator, our Savior, our Lord and for this 'In Christ'--our Brother.

Grace is a subject worth talking about.

God was gonna have His Family and He extended Grace to all of mankind, while certain families of man would stay alive until the Lamb was born into the world He Created; where He suffered astronomically greater than any of us can fathom.

Grace.

Grace is also a subject worth thinking about....a lot.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Alive