The Intended Audience of the Olivet Discourse

[Shilohsfoal]

There some in Israel like Peter, James, John and Andrew who are both natural israel and spiritual Israel. 

Maybe hes talking directly to them. 

 

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

There some in Israel like Peter, James, John and Andrew who are both natural israel and spiritual Israel. 

Maybe hes talking directly to them. 

 

Agree.  He's talking to both natural and spiritual Israel.  The context determines what applies to whom.  I think the dual nature is best seen in Revelation 12.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

[Retrobyter]

On 3/21/2022 at 3:25 PM, Last Daze said:

Who was Jesus talking to when He gave the Olivet discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and Mark 13?  Some say it was only relevant for the Jews. Others say it only pertained to the immediate audience and was fulfilled in the first century.  When Jesus said things like "when you see all these things", who was He addressing?  His immediate audience according to Mark 13:3 was Peter, James, John, and Andrew.  Did it only pertain to those four, or was there a larger audience intended?  If it was intended for a larger audience then who were they?  

The four disciples who Jesus was talking to are representative of both natural Israel and spiritual Israel.  The context determines the relevance.  Some things would take place in the first century and others would be fulfilled centuries later.

First century only

Many of those who believe in the first century fulfillment of the entire Olivet discourse rely on Jesus' use of the pronoun "you" to refer to those present at that time and His statement that "this generation  will not pass away until all these things take place" refers to the same. Here are two familiar prophecies that were given to those present but fulfilled much later:

• The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen.   Deuteronomy 18:15

This is Moses giving some final instructions to the children of Israel before they entered the promised land.  Did those Israelis who heard Moses' voice see Jesus?  No, he was referring to the nation.  And another one:

• Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will name Him Immanuel.  Isaiah 7:14

This was spoken to king Ahaz.  Was Ahaz around to see the virgin birth of Christ?

And when Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was referring to the nation Israel as the Greek word genea could be translated.  It could also mean a multitude of people living at a particular time but since some of the things Jesus talked about, like the great tribulation, are still future and everyone from the first century has passed away, it's apparent that He's referring to the natural lineage of Israel not passing away.

Natural Israel only

Some believe that the Olivet discourse is only relevant to natural Israel.  The main reason I expect is that those who are in Judea are told to flee to the mountains.  If that's all that was stated, I'd be inclined to agree but that's not all.  Jesus also says, "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  He did NOT say that they would be hated throughout the Middle East because they were Jews. The majority of natural Israel rejects Christ as the Messiah. Why would they be hated for His name? What He's saying is that around the world, people will be hated and killed because of the name of Jesus.  That verse applies to those who name the name of Christ, spiritual Israel, those who trust in Jesus.  It's describing the beginning of the great tribulation when the mark and image come about.

The abomination of desolation and the ensuing time of great tribulation are central to the Olivet discourse and the return of Christ, future events that will affect both natural and spiritual Israel, although differently.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

Natural Israel is attacked first and flees to the wilderness.  War is then waged against spiritual Israel.  The Olivet discourse is relevant to both.  And to echo what Jesus said:

• What I say to you I say to all: "Stay alert!"  Mark 13:37

Shabbat shalom, Last Daze.

I went to Bible college and studied the Harmony of the Gospels by A. T. Robertson and also Davies' Harmony of the Gospels by Benjamin Davies, Ed., both which harmonized the four Gospels in the English of the KJV. As I learned Greek, I learned that the same Greek phrase with ONE word difference could produce two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT English sentences! So, I realized that a Harmony of the GREEK versions of the Gospels would be needed to really understand how the four Gospels aligned on different events in the life of our Lord. For the Olivet Discourse, we only need the three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

So, I started a project that took about a year in which I harmonized the Greek of the Synoptic Gospels on the Olivet Discourse. I used the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet program, treating it as a database, and made columns for the verse number, the word number within the verse, the Greek word, its English translation, and the order number common to all three Gospels, all within each of the three books, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, for a total of 15 columns, and I sized the columns wider or narrower to all fit on a page printed in landscape.

Matthew's words were highlighted in pink, Mark's words were in yellow, and Luke's words were in blue. Whenever there were sections that were common to Matthew and Mark, they were highlighted red (which looked close to orange, compared to the pink); those common to Mark and Luke were highlighted green, and those sections common to Matthew and Luke were highlighted purple. Those sections that were common to all three were highlighted brown. I also marked vertical columns where sections were near-future prophecies with past fulfillment with a green highlighter, and marked distant-future prophecies with yet future fulfillment with a pink highlighter.

The first section that was common in brown was Matthew 24:2:13-23, Mark 13:2:12-22; and Luke 21:6:8-15. The phrase was "ou mee afelthee hoode lithos epi lithon hos ou mee katalutheesetai." which means "not surely-not shall-be-left here a-stone upon a-stone that not surely-not shall-be-torn-down." You will find that phrase in all three Gospels.

The next phrase that they have in common is in Matthew 24:3:9-32; Mark 13:3:12-4:14; and Luke 21:7:1-17, with variations between the three.

(I'm using the punctuation this way: book chapter:verse:word. 24:3:9-32 spans the 9th word through the 32nd word of verse 3, and 13:3:12-4:14 spans the 12th word of verse 3 through the 14th word of verse 4. These also refer to the Greek words.)

Matthew said,
"proseelthon autoo hoi matheetai kat' idian legontes, 'Eipe heemin pote tauta estai kai ti to seemeion tees sees parousias kai tees sunteleias tou aioonos?'"

but Mark said,
"eperoota auton kat' idian Petros kai Iakoobos kai Iooannees kai Andreas: 'Eipe heemin pote tauta estai kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee panta tauta sunteleisthai?'"

and Luke said,

"Epeerooteesan de auton legontes, 'Didaskale, pote oun tauta estai kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta ginestai?'"

In English,

Matthew said,
"approached Him the students/disciples down privately saying, 'Tell us when these-things shall-be and what the sign of-the of-thee/thy revealing and of-the entire-completion of-the of-age?'"

Mark said,
"approached Him down privately Peter and Jacob/James and John and Andrew: 'Tell us when these-things shall-be and what the sign when should-be-about of-all these-things shall-be-entirely-completed?'"

Luke said,
"approached but Him saying, 'Teacher, when these-things shall-be and what the sign when should-be-about these-things to-become?'"

As you can see, the process is just a little involved.

-o-

In the process of this project and study, I learned some things about the Olivet Discourse that gave me a new appreciation of Yeshua`s method of prophesying: He starts in the now, and works Himself step-by-step into the distant future. Then, He snaps back to the present and speaks directly to His students prophesying about their near future and then works Himself step-by-step into the distant future again. It follows a saw-tooth form, like "VVVV " where the top of the V's are the distant future and the bottom of the V's are the near future.

Yeshua` telegraphs His movement between the near future and the distant future by using different pronouns and verbs that are translated as different pronouns in English: When He is talking to His students about their near future, he will address them directly in the pronouns he uses: humeis, humoon, humin, and humas; and in the verbs with endings of -ete or -ethe. All of these words and endings show second-person plural.

When He drifts off to the distant future, He no longer uses these pronouns and endings but uses verbs with -tai or -thai endings and speaks of "many" in the words polloi, pollous, etc. He'll even use pronouns like "those" instead of "these" in the words houtoi, toutoon, toutois, toutous, hautai, tautais, tautas, etc.

So, He speaks of BOTH the First Century prophecies and the distant future prophecies. The "abomination of desolation" was something that He said His students could see. Thus, it is what happened in 66 A.D., before the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. However, He also looked ahead to the distant future when "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Knowing which is which is another doable challenge! Therefore, a futurist who believes the whole of the Olivet Discourse is to be fulfilled in the future is just as wrong as the preterist who believes that the whole of the Olivet Discourse was all fulfilled in the past.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Retrobyter
Shabbat started before I could post

[abcdef]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:40 AM, Retrobyter said:

So, He speaks of BOTH the First Century prophecies and the distant future prophecies. The "abomination of desolation" was something that He said His students could see. Thus, it is what happened in 66 A.D., before the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Yes

 

On 4/16/2022 at 12:40 AM, Retrobyter said:

However, He also looked ahead to the distant future when "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Yes, this shows the time after 70 AD and what happened to the children of Israel after 70 AD. This is the time of trouble.

But it is centuries, not just 7 years that the Roman beast rules over Israel.

The times of the gentiles ends in 1967.

(The 7 times, 3 1/2 times, 42 months, 1260 days of Revelation are all symbolic and not literal, centuries of time.)

 

On 4/16/2022 at 12:40 AM, Retrobyter said:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The sign of the coming resurrection is that Jerusalem is restored.

The gathering in Matt 24:31 is the gathering of Israel from among the gentile nations to return and restore Jerusalem.

The trumpet that is blown is the 5th trumpet not the 7th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is the one with the locusts that we are discussing on the locust thread. The locusts drive Israel out of the gentile nations back to restore Jerusalem.

The 5th trumpet was blown in 1929, when Caesar (Bishop of Rome) returned to sit on the seat of the beast nation Rome.

The events after 1929, now history, show this happened.

 

On 4/16/2022 at 12:40 AM, Retrobyter said:

Knowing which is which is another doable challenge! Therefore, a futurist who believes the whole of the Olivet Discourse is to be fulfilled in the future is just as wrong as the preterist who believes that the whole of the Olivet Discourse was all fulfilled in the past.

The missing piece is the 70 AD - 1967 time period.

Understand that 70 AD -1967 is the times of the gentiles, centuries. 

----

The thing that both pretrib and preterism have in common is that both of them seem to prove that the Bishop of Rome is not the Antichrist. Which I won't go into here.

I just wanted to agree on this for further discussion on the locust thread.

Fifth trumpet, locusts, 1929.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 4/17/2022 at 7:59 PM, abcdef said:

Yes

 

Yes, this shows the time after 70 AD and what happened to the children of Israel after 70 AD. This is the time of trouble.

But it is centuries, not just 7 years that the Roman beast rules over Israel.

The times of the gentiles ends in 1967.

(The 7 times, 3 1/2 times, 42 months, 1260 days of Revelation are all symbolic and not literal, centuries of time.)

Shalom, abcdef.

This isn't correct. First of all, nothing that Yeshua` said in the Olivet Discourse was symbolic. He was talking about literal events and literal time periods. It would have been nice if the "times of the Gentiles" ended in 1967, but even today, the Gentiles have free access to Israel and Jerusalem, particularly the Old City. Three fourths of the Old City is given to the Gentiles! Furthermore, the Muslim have access to the Temple Mount, not allowing the Jews to go there at all! The closest they can get is to the Western Wall, which is just a retention wall of the Temple Mount!

 

On 4/17/2022 at 7:59 PM, abcdef said:

The sign of the coming resurrection is that Jerusalem is restored.

The gathering in Matt 24:31 is the gathering of Israel from among the gentile nations to return and restore Jerusalem.

The trumpet that is blown is the 5th trumpet not the 7th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is the one with the locusts that we are discussing on the locust thread. The locusts drive Israel out of the gentile nations back to restore Jerusalem.

The 5th trumpet was blown in 1929, when Caesar (Bishop of Rome) returned to sit on the seat of the beast nation Rome.

The events after 1929, now history, show this happened.

All of this is REALLY messed up! The gathering in Matthew 24:31 is LITERALLY the messengers of God gathering all of God's people from around the earth and bringing them back to the Messiah in Israel. While some would argue that it's not the seventh trumpet (I believe that it is), it is most certainly NOT the fifth trumpet!

On 4/17/2022 at 7:59 PM, abcdef said:

The missing piece is the 70 AD - 1967 time period.

Understand that 70 AD -1967 is the times of the gentiles, centuries. 

----

The thing that both pretrib and preterism have in common is that both of them seem to prove that the Bishop of Rome is not the Antichrist. Which I won't go into here.

I just wanted to agree on this for further discussion on the locust thread.

Fifth trumpet, locusts, 1929.

Well, sorry, but I certainly cannot agree to this understanding of Scripture. The times of the Gentiles is seen several times within the Olivet Discourse. Each time that the Lord Yeshua` looks off into the distant future, He gets there by way of the times of the Gentiles. The first time is when Yeshua` begins talking about them hearing of wars and reports of wars, but He adds, "it is necessary for all these things to happen but the end is not yet happening. Then, He goes into the first details: nation shall rise upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in various locations. All of these are just the beginning of labor pains!" All of this TAKES TIME to realize! This IS the time period from 70 A.D. to 1967 (and BEYOND)!

Then, He jumps back to their near future and says, "Before all this happens, they shall lay their hands on you and they shall persecute you! Then you shall be surrendered into pressure. You shall be brought into synagogues and before the Sanhedrin; you shall be beaten and brought before governors and kings to give testimony of my authority."

Then, He looks off into the future again, saying, "And, the good message must be proclaimed in all nations." Again, this will TAKE TIME to accomplish!

Then, He pops back to the immediate future and says, "But when they lead you away, delivering you up, don't be careful beforehand about what you should say nor meditate about your reply, but whatever may be given to you in that moment, say that, for it won't be you who are speaking but the Holy Spirit! Therefore, settle your hearts not to premeditate what your going to say to make a defense, for I will give you a mouth and a wisdom that those opposing you won't be able to reply nor resist!"

Then, He looks off into the future again, and says, "But brother will deliver up brother into death, and father his child, and the children will rise up against their parents and deliver them to death. And then, many shall be fall into skandal and reveal one another and will hate one another. And, many false prophets will arise and mislead many, and because the lawlessness will have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold. However, the one who endures into the conclusion, shall be rescued. And, the good news of the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the habitable earth as a witness to all the nations, and then shall the end come."

All of this TAKES TIME, as well! Again, there's your 70 A.D. to 1967 (and BEYOND)!

There's MUCH MORE than you're giving credit within the words of our Master!

[Shilohsfoal]

On 3/21/2022 at 3:25 PM, Last Daze said:

Who was Jesus talking to when He gave the Olivet discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and Mark 13?  Some say it was only relevant for the Jews. Others say it only pertained to the immediate audience and was fulfilled in the first century.  When Jesus said things like "when you see all these things", who was He addressing?  His immediate audience according to Mark 13:3 was Peter, James, John, and Andrew.  Did it only pertain to those four, or was there a larger audience intended?  If it was intended for a larger audience then who were they?  

The four disciples who Jesus was talking to are representative of both natural Israel and spiritual Israel.  The context determines the relevance.  Some things would take place in the first century and others would be fulfilled centuries later.

First century only

Many of those who believe in the first century fulfillment of the entire Olivet discourse rely on Jesus' use of the pronoun "you" to refer to those present at that time and His statement that "this generation  will not pass away until all these things take place" refers to the same. Here are two familiar prophecies that were given to those present but fulfilled much later:

• The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen.   Deuteronomy 18:15

This is Moses giving some final instructions to the children of Israel before they entered the promised land.  Did those Israelis who heard Moses' voice see Jesus?  No, he was referring to the nation.  And another one:

• Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will name Him Immanuel.  Isaiah 7:14

This was spoken to king Ahaz.  Was Ahaz around to see the virgin birth of Christ?

And when Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was referring to the nation Israel as the Greek word genea could be translated.  It could also mean a multitude of people living at a particular time but since some of the things Jesus talked about, like the great tribulation, are still future and everyone from the first century has passed away, it's apparent that He's referring to the natural lineage of Israel not passing away.

Natural Israel only

Some believe that the Olivet discourse is only relevant to natural Israel.  The main reason I expect is that those who are in Judea are told to flee to the mountains.  If that's all that was stated, I'd be inclined to agree but that's not all.  Jesus also says, "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  He did NOT say that they would be hated throughout the Middle East because they were Jews. The majority of natural Israel rejects Christ as the Messiah. Why would they be hated for His name? What He's saying is that around the world, people will be hated and killed because of the name of Jesus.  That verse applies to those who name the name of Christ, spiritual Israel, those who trust in Jesus.  It's describing the beginning of the great tribulation when the mark and image come about.

The abomination of desolation and the ensuing time of great tribulation are central to the Olivet discourse and the return of Christ, future events that will affect both natural and spiritual Israel, although differently.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

Natural Israel is attacked first and flees to the wilderness.  War is then waged against spiritual Israel.  The Olivet discourse is relevant to both.  And to echo what Jesus said:

• What I say to you I say to all: "Stay alert!"  Mark 13:37

It is my understanding the kingdom of the beast is the promised land. Ten horns represent ten Muslim nations. The little horn is Israel. 

 

As I understand it. Jesus is speaking directly to the saints in Israel during the time prior to his coming. As I understand it, the king of the north gives Israel a host. An army. It's possible Israel joins NATO before this takes place. At the time the sacrifice is abolished. This could be speaking of the draft. It is at the time the saints in Israel start to suffer tribulation. It is my believe this army will enforce the Israeli governments laws on the Israel's governments behalf. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-33.htm

The  tribulation  of the saints continues for the next 42 months until the king of the south attacks the king of the norths armed forces in Jerusalem. I believe the king of the south is the beast in Revelation that attacks and kills the two witness. After this, the king of the north  responds with the abomination that causes desolation. (nukes) 

Jesus said when the abomination of desolation is placed, it would be a time of great tribulation, the likes of which have never happened. Daniel wrote that his people would be delivered at that time. 

My understanding is, the king of the north is an ally of Israel and very close. After the king of the north sees that Jerusalem has been taken by the ten nations and his forces were defeated trying to defend Israel, and natural Israel being slain, he strikes back destroying all of those nations who attacked Israel. 

I believe he will destroy about everything from Iran to Egypt. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-44.htm

It is at the time the saints of Israel are raised from the dead and inherit the entire promised land from the Euphrates to the Nile as God has promised. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-1.htm

And those Israelis who did not worship the Israeli goverment or recieve its mark and who warned Israel of its coming doom and preached to "repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand" as Jesus taught them in the scripture and died for thier testimony of Jesus, they shall be resurrected and reign with Christ. 

 

And I will be happy for them for they deserve it. Amen. 

 

[abcdef]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

This isn't correct. First of all, nothing that Yeshua` said in the Olivet Discourse was symbolic.

What about the parables after Matt 24:32 and through Matt 25? The fig tree, the talents, the 10 virgins?

Why begin with trying to make everything literal? Even obviously symbolic passages?

Scriptures can be literal and also symbolic at the same time, many are.

We need to evaluate each passage in context and circumstances and then evaluate the literal/symbolic implications.  

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

He was talking about literal events and literal time periods.

Yes, but some of the events and time periods are symbolized. Virgins, talents. 

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

It would have been nice if the "times of the Gentiles" ended in 1967,

The ToG's did end in 1967. It is the pretrib and preterism doctrines that have misled people into skipping/gap the 70 AD-1967 time period. You recognize that the time period is spoken about. But pretrib says that there is no 70 AD-1967 prophecy and that there is a gap, when there isn't one.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

but even today, the Gentiles have free access to Israel and Jerusalem, particularly the Old City. Three fourths of the Old City is given to the Gentiles! Furthermore, the Muslim have access to the Temple Mount, not allowing the Jews to go there at all! The closest they can get is to the Western Wall, which is just a retention wall of the Temple Mount!

This is about military control over Jerusalem. It is not about who lives in or visits Jerusalem.

Lk 21:24, The trampling ends when Israel controls Jerusalem and there are no foreign armies there.

The Temple Mount is controlled by the military of Israel who decides if the Mount can open or not. They search the Mount and Mosque when ever they want to. No, it is not under the control of any army from a foreign nation. 

Many people add requirements to the restoration that are not scriptural.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

All of this is REALLY messed up! The gathering in Matthew 24:31 is LITERALLY the messengers of God gathering all of God's people from around the earth and bringing them back to the Messiah in Israel. While some would argue that it's not the seventh trumpet (I believe that it is), it is most certainly NOT the fifth trumpet!

Matt 24:31 is the 5th trumpet. The trumpet of separation.

It doesn't say exactly which trumpet is blown.

So it could be the trumpet that moves Israel out from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem. (Locust spirits, false prophets)

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

Well, sorry, but I certainly cannot agree to this understanding of Scripture. The times of the Gentiles is seen several times within the Olivet Discourse. Each time that the Lord Yeshua` looks off into the distant future, He gets there by way of the times of the Gentiles.

Ok look, the times of the gentiles is shown in Dan. 2, as the gold, silver, brass, and iron. They represent the entire times of the gentiles (ToGs). The statue is the time period where the gentile nations rule over the children of Israel.

When Jesus talks about the ToGs He is really talking about the rest of the time involved to complete the statue in Dan 2.

The statue gold begins when Jerusalem falls, the toes end when Israel controls Jerusalem, 1967.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

The first time is when Yeshua` begins talking about them hearing of wars and reports of wars, but He adds, "it is necessary for all these things to happen but the end is not yet happening. Then, He goes into the first details: nation shall rise upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in various locations. All of these are just the beginning of labor pains!" All of this TAKES TIME to realize! This IS the time period from 70 A.D. to 1967 (and BEYOND)!

Then, He jumps back to their near future and says, "Before all this happens, they shall lay their hands on you and they shall persecute you! Then you shall be surrendered into pressure. You shall be brought into synagogues and before the Sanhedrin; you shall be beaten and brought before governors and kings to give testimony of my authority."

Then, He looks off into the future again, saying, "And, the good message must be proclaimed in all nations." Again, this will TAKE TIME to accomplish!

Then, He pops back to the immediate future and says, "But when they lead you away, delivering you up, don't be careful beforehand about what you should say nor meditate about your reply, but whatever may be given to you in that moment, say that, for it won't be you who are speaking but the Holy Spirit! Therefore, settle your hearts not to premeditate what your going to say to make a defense, for I will give you a mouth and a wisdom that those opposing you won't be able to reply nor resist!"

Then, He looks off into the future again, and says, "But brother will deliver up brother into death, and father his child, and the children will rise up against their parents and deliver them to death. And then, many shall be fall into skandal and reveal one another and will hate one another. And, many false prophets will arise and mislead many, and because the lawlessness will have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold. However, the one who endures into the conclusion, shall be rescued.

Matt 24:1-31, is one continual timeline. 33 AD- 70 AD-1967

Matt 24:1-28, 33 AD- 70 AD, Beginning with wars and earthquakes, the persecution of the apostles, the events before the fall and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Matt 24:29-31, 70 AD- 1967, The ToGs after 70 AD until when the gathering restores Jerusalem.

 

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

And, the good news of the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the habitable earth as a witness to all the nations, and then shall the end come."

Matt 24:14.

The kingdom gospel was preached to "every nation under heaven", on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2:5. 

Col 1:23, Paul preached to, "every creature which is under heaven".

The end that comes is the end of the temple and Jerusalem, that is what the apostles asked about, not the planet.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

All of this TAKES TIME, as well! Again, there's your 70 A.D. to 1967 (and BEYOND)!

Matt 25 is talking about the long time period after 70 AD until the resur/rapt and then the judgment of good and evil.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

There's MUCH MORE than you're giving credit within the words of our Master!

Like what, symbolism?

What does the temple symbolize?

What does Jerusalem symbolize?

What does it symbolize that the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD?

--

[Retrobyter]

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

What about the parables after Matt 24:32 and through Matt 25? The fig tree, the talents, the 10 virgins?

Shalom, abcdef.

To you I would say, "PRECISELY!" Yeshua` is saying THROUGHOUT the Olivet Discourse that they were to "Blepete! " "WATCH!" They were to "Horate! " "DISCERN CLEARLY!" They were to "Ginooskete! " "KNOW!" They were to "Greegoreite! " "BE ON GUARD!" Those were His point in all this! He wanted them to be PREPARED for what was coming! He wanted them to have the wisdom they would need to survive!

I noticed, too, that you conveniently left off "the sheep and the goats!"

The fig tree (and Luke adds "and all the trees") is about discerning the coming of summer by seeing the first signs of spring! The fig tree was one of the first trees in Israel to bud! When the twigs are beginning to green and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is just around the corner. YES, that is an analogy, but then He drops the other shoe: "So likewise when you see all these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near!" Matthew and Mark say "it" but Luke tells us that "it" is "the arrival of the Kingdom of God."

THE TALENTS was a parable that Luke told back in chapter 19, instead of 21, probably because Yeshua` told it then first, as they approached Jerusalem, but Matthew and Mark tell us He included a retelling of it in the Olivet Discourse.

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade) till I come.'

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ...

This has elements of analogy, but the gist of the parable is LITERAL! He is the "certain nobleman"; Yeshua` indeed is the "son of David," not to mention the "Son of God!" So, He is INDEED noble! He gave His wealth to His servants, and told them to trade with those riches until He returned. Granted, that may not be literal, monetary riches; it may represent the other valuables in their lives, like being able to live peaceably with others, and sharing with them the valuable truth of God's Word, particularly about Yeshua` the Messiah Himself, and sharing God's love with others, but the background of this parable is LITERAL! Yeshua` WAS about to "go away into a "far country" to "receive for Himself a Kingdom" and then "to return" with that Kingdom!

Verse 14 shows the attitude of the religious leaders and the leaders of the Tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") that they exhibited against the Messiah Yeshua`. We all know now that He KNEW He was going to Jerusalem to die. This came as no surprise to Him.

THE TEN VIRGINS is a parable that describes the Boy Scout motto that Yeshua` wanted His servants to have. BE PREPARED! To be half prepared is not to be prepared at all! They had their lamps all ready to go, but they failed to provide themselves enough oil to fuel them! When the groom arrived, they were GONE! They had to go to the stores and buy more oil! So, they missed their chance to welcome the groom's arrival! This parable concludes in the night hours, and it was customary to "lock the door" by pulling in the latch rope for the night. The late arrivals knocked on the door, begging for admittance, but they were answered, "We don't know who you are! We can't let in strangers at this time of night!" And so, they were left outside and were absent from the party going on within. Again, His whole point to this parable was "BE PREPARED!" and "WATCH FOR HIS COMING!" He said this in Matthew 25:13!

Matthew then puts the Talents here in Matthew 25:14-30. His conclusion for this parable is this:

Matthew 25:29-30 (KJV)

29 "For unto every one that hath (something) shall be given (more), and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not (something gained) shall be taken away even that which he hath (what he originally was given). 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (into the darkness outside): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Yeshua` was saying that He will be an EXACTING King and Judge when He returns! He's not saying that He is throwing someone into "hell"; He is saying that they will be negatively rewarded for not doing their job while He was gone!

 

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Why begin with trying to make everything literal? Even obviously symbolic passages?

One should begin with the literal; that is, the historical and grammatical background of a passage, because it is FIRST historical and mostly literal! Any symbolism is based upon the facts of the history! All literature has SOME analogy in the writing, but one must read the commonplace, the practical, FIRST, and THEN one can hang analogies upon the literal! Symbolism has no meaning without a solid base from which to work! A parable, for instance, has no meaning without the practical story from which the parable's symbolism is built! What good is the analogy without the concrete? One must first ANCHOR the ship in the harbor before letting it drift! If one doesn't, the ship will be driven with the wind and the waves, smashing into other ships and docks at random! (That's an analogy, btw.)

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Scriptures can be literal and also symbolic at the same time, many are.

We need to evaluate each passage in context and circumstances and then evaluate the literal/symbolic implications.  

No. The symbolism is BASED upon the concrete! Using my analogy, the ship is free to ride the waves by first being anchored firmly to the rocks below! Most symbolism and analogy is meant to reveal ONE thing without going all over the place! If one is unfettered to float aimlessly all over the place, the results are just ... CHAOS! Who knows where one will end up?! Symbolism must ALWAYS be anchored to the literal and concrete, the history and the literary prowess of the author. The stranger theories of theology and prophecy are ALWAYS tied to unfettered analogy and symbolism!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Yes, but some of the events and time periods are symbolized. Virgins, talents. 

 

The ToG's did end in 1967. It is the pretrib and preterism doctrines that have misled people into skipping/gap the 70 AD-1967 time period. You recognize that the time period is spoken about. But pretrib says that there is no 70 AD-1967 prophecy and that there is a gap, when there isn't one.

What is it with you and 1967? No, the Times of the Gentiles have NOT ended, yet! The children of Israel are STILL spread abroad throughout the nations, and the Nation of Israel is still suppressed by the Islamic and Christian (in name only) influences upon their country! THAT'S how we know they haven't ended, yet; not from some arbitrary date!

I am not pretrib. However, I DO recognize a "gap" that Yeshua` HIMSELF injected when He rejected His generation for rejecting His Kingship! There certainly IS a "gap!" Yeshua` said, 

Matthew 23:38-39 (KJV)

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

In the King's English of 1611 (and the following revisions), "till" means "until."

The sentence "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" is from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of this sentence is ...

בָּר֣וּךְ הַ֭בָּא בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה 26 (read from right to left)

Transliterated, this is ...

26 Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH.

It literally means, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH." When the children of Israel, particularly the Jews - the members of Yeshua`s own tribe of Judah - can welcome Him back as YHWH'S Messiah, THEN He shall return, and they shall "see Him again."

This is how CRUCIAL their acceptance of Him is!

His denouncement of them and pronouncing them "desolate" is in partial fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"That determined" are all the things that God has decided should befall Israel as they are under the Times of the Gentiles, and the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, especially those of Jerusalem, ARE the "desolate."

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

This is about military control over Jerusalem. It is not about who lives in or visits Jerusalem.

Lk 21:24, The trampling ends when Israel controls Jerusalem and there are no foreign armies there.

The Temple Mount is controlled by the military of Israel who decides if the Mount can open or not. They search the Mount and Mosque when ever they want to. No, it is not under the control of any army from a foreign nation. 

Many people add requirements to the restoration that are not scriptural.

I don't think this is true. While Israel is in control of the Temple Mount, they still answer to the Mufti to be sure the Muslims have their sanctuary intact. Perhaps, we should ask @George, since he lives there. I'd be willing to abide by what he tells us. What do you think about asking him?

Technically, there's nothing in the statement of Luke 21:24 that suggests that this is MILITARY trampling. It's just TRAMPLING! We also have the passage that says,

Joel 3:9-21 (KJV)

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about": thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Matt 24:31 is the 5th trumpet. The trumpet of separation.

It doesn't say exactly which trumpet is blown.

So it could be the trumpet that moves Israel out from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem. (Locust spirits, false prophets)

See, this is the kind of nonsense that comes from taking this allegorically first! Matthew 24:31 has NOTHING to do with the 5th Trumpet! That's like trying to connect the dots without following the numbers in order! Oh, you'll get ... something, but it is NOWHERE NEAR what it should have been!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Ok look, the times of the gentiles is shown in Dan. 2, as the gold, silver, brass, and iron. They represent the entire times of the gentiles (ToGs). The statue is the time period where the gentile nations rule over the children of Israel.

Actually Daniel 2 is showing Nebuchadnezzar the future regarding the empires that would rise after him. It was God's way of saying that Nebuchadnezzar was NOT the only emperor who would ever exist! It really doesn't mean about "the gentile nations rule over the children of Israel," although they DO come into play, particularly in the LAST Empire, that which would be ruled by YHWH God Himself!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

When Jesus talks about the ToGs He is really talking about the rest of the time involved to complete the statue in Dan 2.

The statue gold begins when Jerusalem falls, the toes end when Israel controls Jerusalem, 1967.

There you go again with this 1967 nonsense! It was a great year, to be sure, but it was NOT the "end of the toes" of the statue! That's PURELY made-up!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Matt 24:1-31, is one continual timeline. 33 AD- 70 AD-1967

Matt 24:1-28, 33 AD- 70 AD, Beginning with wars and earthquakes, the persecution of the apostles, the events before the fall and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Matt 24:29-31, 70 AD- 1967, The ToGs after 70 AD until when the gathering restores Jerusalem.

No, you need to go back and re-read the Olivet Discourse. Furthermore, read it in ALL THREE Gospels, Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21! Read for understanding, not to put your beliefs into what you are reading!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Matt 24:14.

The kingdom gospel was preached to "every nation under heaven", on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2:5. 

Col 1:23, Paul preached to, "every creature which is under heaven".

Nope. The gospel of the Kingdom is FAR DIFFERENT than what is preached today as "the gospel!" You're not making any sense, because you're not trying to understand what the author of a book, like Acts, is trying to tell you! You're making things up based on a few words of similarity!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The end that comes is the end of the temple and Jerusalem, that is what the apostles asked about, not the planet.

It's neither, actually. It's the end of the wait for His Coming!

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Matt 25 is talking about the long time period after 70 AD until the resur/rapt and then the judgment of good and evil.

Well, it is indeed about the resurrection and the rapture (not to "Heaven," but to Israel THROUGH "the sky"). The Judgment of good, or rather, of the justified by God DOES coincide with the coming of the King with His possession of the Kingdom. After all, Yeshua` the Messiah of God is the one who does the judging (John 5), but the judgment on the unjust will not happen until AFTER the first 1,000 years of His reign. THEN, He will set up His Great White Throne for their judgment.

55 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Like what, symbolism?

What does the temple symbolize?

What does Jerusalem symbolize?

What does it symbolize that the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD?

--

Get off the symbolism kick! You're trying to read into the Scriptures something that just frankly isn't there!

[truth7t7]

On 4/22/2022 at 11:51 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

To you I would say, "PRECISELY!" Yeshua` is saying THROUGHOUT the Olivet Discourse that they were to "Blepete! " "WATCH!" They were to "Horate! " "DISCERN CLEARLY!" They were to "Ginooskete! " "KNOW!" They were to "Greegoreite! " "BE ON GUARD!" Those were His point in all this! He wanted them to be PREPARED for what was coming! He wanted them to have the wisdom they would need to survive!

I noticed, too, that you conveniently left off "the sheep and the goats!"

The fig tree (and Luke adds "and all the trees") is about discerning the coming of summer by seeing the first signs of spring! The fig tree was one of the first trees in Israel to bud! When the twigs are beginning to green and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is just around the corner. YES, that is an analogy, but then He drops the other shoe: "So likewise when you see all these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near!" Matthew and Mark say "it" but Luke tells us that "it" is "the arrival of the Kingdom of God."

THE TALENTS was a parable that Luke told back in chapter 19, instead of 21, probably because Yeshua` told it then first, as they approached Jerusalem, but Matthew and Mark tell us He included a retelling of it in the Olivet Discourse.

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade) till I come.'

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ...

This has elements of analogy, but the gist of the parable is LITERAL! He is the "certain nobleman"; Yeshua` indeed is the "son of David," not to mention the "Son of God!" So, He is INDEED noble! He gave His wealth to His servants, and told them to trade with those riches until He returned. Granted, that may not be literal, monetary riches; it may represent the other valuables in their lives, like being able to live peaceably with others, and sharing with them the valuable truth of God's Word, particularly about Yeshua` the Messiah Himself, and sharing God's love with others, but the background of this parable is LITERAL! Yeshua` WAS about to "go away into a "far country" to "receive for Himself a Kingdom" and then "to return" with that Kingdom!

Verse 14 shows the attitude of the religious leaders and the leaders of the Tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") that they exhibited against the Messiah Yeshua`. We all know now that He KNEW He was going to Jerusalem to die. This came as no surprise to Him.

THE TEN VIRGINS is a parable that describes the Boy Scout motto that Yeshua` wanted His servants to have. BE PREPARED! To be half prepared is not to be prepared at all! They had their lamps all ready to go, but they failed to provide themselves enough oil to fuel them! When the groom arrived, they were GONE! They had to go to the stores and buy more oil! So, they missed their chance to welcome the groom's arrival! This parable concludes in the night hours, and it was customary to "lock the door" by pulling in the latch rope for the night. The late arrivals knocked on the door, begging for admittance, but they were answered, "We don't know who you are! We can't let in strangers at this time of night!" And so, they were left outside and were absent from the party going on within. Again, His whole point to this parable was "BE PREPARED!" and "WATCH FOR HIS COMING!" He said this in Matthew 25:13!

Matthew then puts the Talents here in Matthew 25:14-30. His conclusion for this parable is this:

Matthew 25:29-30 (KJV)

29 "For unto every one that hath (something) shall be given (more), and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not (something gained) shall be taken away even that which he hath (what he originally was given). 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (into the darkness outside): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Yeshua` was saying that He will be an EXACTING King and Judge when He returns! He's not saying that He is throwing someone into "hell"; He is saying that they will be negatively rewarded for not doing their job while He was gone!

 

One should begin with the literal; that is, the historical and grammatical background of a passage, because it is FIRST historical and mostly literal! Any symbolism is based upon the facts of the history! All literature has SOME analogy in the writing, but one must read the commonplace, the practical, FIRST, and THEN one can hang analogies upon the literal! Symbolism has no meaning without a solid base from which to work! A parable, for instance, has no meaning without the practical story from which the parable's symbolism is built! What good is the analogy without the concrete? One must first ANCHOR the ship in the harbor before letting it drift! If one doesn't, the ship will be driven with the wind and the waves, smashing into other ships and docks at random! (That's an analogy, btw.)

No. The symbolism is BASED upon the concrete! Using my analogy, the ship is free to ride the waves by first being anchored firmly to the rocks below! Most symbolism and analogy is meant to reveal ONE thing without going all over the place! If one is unfettered to float aimlessly all over the place, the results are just ... CHAOS! Who knows where one will end up?! Symbolism must ALWAYS be anchored to the literal and concrete, the history and the literary prowess of the author. The stranger theories of theology and prophecy are ALWAYS tied to unfettered analogy and symbolism!

What is it with you and 1967? No, the Times of the Gentiles have NOT ended, yet! The children of Israel are STILL spread abroad throughout the nations, and the Nation of Israel is still suppressed by the Islamic and Christian (in name only) influences upon their country! THAT'S how we know they haven't ended, yet; not from some arbitrary date!

I am not pretrib. However, I DO recognize a "gap" that Yeshua` HIMSELF injected when He rejected His generation for rejecting His Kingship! There certainly IS a "gap!" Yeshua` said, 

Matthew 23:38-39 (KJV)

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

In the King's English of 1611 (and the following revisions), "till" means "until."

The sentence "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" is from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of this sentence is ...

בָּר֣וּךְ הַ֭בָּא בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה 26 (read from right to left)

Transliterated, this is ...

26 Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH.

It literally means, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH." When the children of Israel, particularly the Jews - the members of Yeshua`s own tribe of Judah - can welcome Him back as YHWH'S Messiah, THEN He shall return, and they shall "see Him again."

This is how CRUCIAL their acceptance of Him is!

His denouncement of them and pronouncing them "desolate" is in partial fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"That determined" are all the things that God has decided should befall Israel as they are under the Times of the Gentiles, and the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, especially those of Jerusalem, ARE the "desolate."

I don't think this is true. While Israel is in control of the Temple Mount, they still answer to the Mufti to be sure the Muslims have their sanctuary intact. Perhaps, we should ask @George, since he lives there. I'd be willing to abide by what he tells us. What do you think about asking him?

Technically, there's nothing in the statement of Luke 21:24 that suggests that this is MILITARY trampling. It's just TRAMPLING! We also have the passage that says,

Joel 3:9-21 (KJV)

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about": thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

See, this is the kind of nonsense that comes from taking this allegorically first! Matthew 24:31 has NOTHING to do with the 5th Trumpet! That's like trying to connect the dots without following the numbers in order! Oh, you'll get ... something, but it is NOWHERE NEAR what it should have been!

Actually Daniel 2 is showing Nebuchadnezzar the future regarding the empires that would rise after him. It was God's way of saying that Nebuchadnezzar was NOT the only emperor who would ever exist! It really doesn't mean about "the gentile nations rule over the children of Israel," although they DO come into play, particularly in the LAST Empire, that which would be ruled by YHWH God Himself!

There you go again with this 1967 nonsense! It was a great year, to be sure, but it was NOT the "end of the toes" of the statue! That's PURELY made-up!

No, you need to go back and re-read the Olivet Discourse. Furthermore, read it in ALL THREE Gospels, Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21! Read for understanding, not to put your beliefs into what you are reading!

Nope. The gospel of the Kingdom is FAR DIFFERENT than what is preached today as "the gospel!" You're not making any sense, because you're not trying to understand what the author of a book, like Acts, is trying to tell you! You're making things up based on a few words of similarity!

It's neither, actually. It's the end of the wait for His Coming!

Well, it is indeed about the resurrection and the rapture (not to "Heaven," but to Israel THROUGH "the sky"). The Judgment of good, or rather, of the justified by God DOES coincide with the coming of the King with His possession of the Kingdom. After all, Yeshua` the Messiah of God is the one who does the judging (John 5), but the judgment on the unjust will not happen until AFTER the first 1,000 years of His reign. THEN, He will set up His Great White Throne for their judgment.

Get off the symbolism kick! You're trying to read into the Scriptures something that just frankly isn't there!

Your responses are  tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long, a Novel

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Edited April 24, 2022 by truth7t7

[Last Daze]

On 4/22/2022 at 9:35 PM, abcdef said:

This is about military control over Jerusalem. It is not about who lives in or visits Jerusalem.

Lk 21:24, The trampling ends when Israel controls Jerusalem and there are no foreign armies there.

The Temple Mount is controlled by the military of Israel who decides if the Mount can open or not. They search the Mount and Mosque when ever they want to. No, it is not under the control of any army from a foreign nation. 

Many people add requirements to the restoration that are not scriptural.

Completely agree with this point.

The times of the nations (times of the Gentiles) is God's promise to Abraham being fulfilled that in him, all the nations would be blessed.  This was accomplished by preaching the gospel to all the world.  Jesus gave us this marker to know when that would be finished:

• And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24

The Israelis captured Jerusalem in 1967 and are autonomous there.  Jerusalem is not being trampled underfoot by Gentiles therefore the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.  The fullness of the Gentiles, however, is yet to come in.  We are in the process of the wheat being brought to maturity before the harvest.