The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All who don't die would automatically become IMMORTAL  by being of the 'alive and remaining group',  correct?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In that context, yes. But Zech 14 tells us some will survive the battle in the Valley of Jehoshaphat and those would not be immortal. 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Yep! Not everyone who is not of the Messiah will take the mark of the beast; only those who dwell within his kingdom. There will be others in other nations who do not take the mark. Quit thinking UNIVERSALLY! These are not cases of "p" and "not p!' There are MULTIPLE conditions that must be met to be a subject who takes the mark of the beast!

I think that instead of following that advice I will stick with my 'universal' thinking.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

When those in Christ who are dead are raised back to life, and those in Christ who are alive are transformed, then they shall have put on incorruption and immortality.

Those who are NOT in Christ but are dead shall remain in their graves until the conclusion of the Millennium. Those who are NOT in Christ and are alive when He comes, will not be transformed and they will live a normal life, have children, and die a first death just as anyone does today.

So, who says "there will be no more DEATH or GRAVE for the Millennium?" That's not found in the Scriptures.

Don't confuse the Millennium with the Eternal State after the Great White Throne Judgment - the Judgment of damnation - and after the sentencing to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur.

One of us is confused but here's the thing that should clear it all up. 

  I believe this, do you?
 

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do you have any CHRISTIANS 'dead' for any amount of time ever?  If so, there is a problem wherever they are found to be so.
 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` was saying that God is not the God of the dead because Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV shall not stay dead but will be resurrected! He is the God of the living because of the Resurrection!

If you think for one moment that you can be live and believe in Yeshua` the Messiah and never face death in this life, you're only fooling yourself. People still wear out and cease to function; they die and must be buried, just as Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV died and were buried all in the cave of Machpeelaah near Hevrown ("Hebron"). HOWEVER, they are NOT considered "permanently dead" because there SHALL BE A RESURRECTION!

The graves opened.  

You KEEP 'THE SHALL BE A' in the words of God.  CHRIST JESUS removed them and that shall be became an IS NOW.  HE is the RESURRECTION.  HE is NOW.  He went to prepare a place for us where He is.  He is in heaven.  We are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual one AND go to be with Him where He is and will return with Him on the Day He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  

 

[kenny2212]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:49 PM, DeighAnn said:

COULD THIS be written AS IT IS if what you say is TRUTH?  Because I DONT see the 'delay'.  I see 'sown and raised'. 


I don't see sown and not raised THEN returned and then raised.  ALSO what I don't see is this taking place on a certain day date and time.  NOT UNTIL we are told about the alive and remaining AT THE END of the 'what happens at death' chapter.


1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43
it is sown in dishonour;
it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness;
it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body;
it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The unrighteous dead are resurrected to face the great white throne judgement, not along with the righteous dead.

Revelation 20:11-15 - 

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (emphasis mine)

Revelation 20:4-6 distinguishes between the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

If it was God's plan to ALWAYS resurrect the righteous and the unrighteous together, he wouldn't have differentiated between them as seen in Revelation 20. 

The righteous dead are judged in Rev. 20:4. Then the unrighteous dead are judged in Rev. 20:11-15.

Edited March 31, 2022 by kenny2212

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I would say the sum total of God's wrath is to be thrown into the lake of fire. The ultimate vengeance would be your enemy tormented forever. Whatever comes at the end when Jesus arrives is more a pleading to turn than what we think of as wrath.  Wrath doesn't come upon the flesh but upon the eternally tormented soul. God uses pain and suffering to get our attention, not to punish, but for our growth. It doesn't work for everyone but it does for some.

So then your 500 year old tormenter will be raised for the judgement and judged according to his or her works, as in Matt 25. 

During the time of God's and Jesus' wrath if people die without acknowledging Christ as Lord they will effectively be cast into the pit after the GWT judgement.

What if your tormenter of 500 years ago turned to Christ on their deathbed and you didn't know it? Now they are a brother in Christ. 

In the end I see wrath as the ultimate death of the soul in the lake of fire. The rest is pleading to change hearts so souls are saved from that wrath.

 

 

 

 

I see it a little different...
 

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


 

Psalm 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

Psalm 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalm 58:5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Psalm 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Psalm 58:7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

Psalm 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

Psalm 58:9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

Psalm 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Psalm 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Psalm 98:9 Before the LORD; for He cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall He judge the world, and the people with equity.


As for my tormentor that turned to Christ on his deathbed, he JUST like me receives the gift of salvation.  JUDGMENT FOR HIS DEEDS is still in his future.  
I don't know why people think being 'saved' is DEED removal.  Works do follow us  and I do understand good covering up bad so just superficial skim here.  

 

[DeighAnn]

20 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

not along with the righteous dead.

Who are they?

[DeighAnn]

20 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

When did these dead go from horizontal to vertical?   It is before the sea and hell deliver up their dead.  

[Selah7]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

25 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

not along with the righteous dead.

Who are they?

The dead in Christ: 
 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:4

[Selah7]

 

15 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

When did these dead go from horizontal to vertical?   It is before the sea and hell deliver up their dead.  

I don’t think there’s a horizontal or a vertical in a spiritual body who isn’t dead at all but rather bound to perish in the lake of fire or live forever in the Eternity.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by Selah7