First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then what about the Apostles? Jesus Himself? They died. You can't say they didn't die cause they did and it's recorded. Stephen saw heaven opened and then;

"

At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice, and rushed together at him. 58They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die

Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.

The sleep of death obviously as he was stoned to death.

And that's it. Nothing else is said. These are the facts.

 

 

Are you saying AFTER all the times I have stressed 'death of the flesh only'  'as in Adam we die' 'don't remain sleeping' 'no delay between death and resurrection'  and all the other ways I have said it,  you STILL DIDN'T UNDERSTAND what i was saying?  
 
YCF said it better

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by DeighAnn

[transmogrified]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

We will all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye...at the last trump...You do not get a glorified body at the time you die, you will get it at the resurrection.

What you say and what are written are 2 different things.  

What is written is "Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye..at the last trump."

The last trump sounds at the end of the tribulation.

What is written: "We shall all be changed at the last trump.."

False doctrine:  "We shall not all be changed at the last trump..."

What is written: "But we know that when he shall appear we will be like him.."

False doctrine: "But we know that when our spirit leaves our body we will like him."

What is written: "Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

False doctrine:  "Christ the first fruits, and people that belong to Christ will never be resurrected at his coming because if you believe in Jesus you will never die.."

What is written: "The beast overcomes the two witnesses and kills them and their dead bodies lie in the street... people see their dead bodies and do not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

False doctrine:  The beast does not kill the two witnesses because if you believe on Jesus you will never die...the people did not see their dead bodies in the street, because they couldn't have died because believers in Jesus can never die...they did not bury their dead bodies because they were never dead because if you are a believer in Jesus you can never die.

What is written: "And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him."

False doctrine:  They could not have killed Stephen because if you believe in Jesus you will never die...he wasn't slain because he believed in Jesus and so he could never die...Paul was wrong by saying he was consenting unto his death because if you believe in Jesus you can never die.

What is written: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them."

False doctrine:  Paul was wrong by saying they were put to death, because if you believe on Jesus you will never die.

What is written: "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.'

False doctrine:  Paul was wrong to say Death is swallowed up in victory...because if you believe in Jesus you will never die.

What is written: "According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death."

False doctrine:  Paul was wrong to say he could have died because if you believe in Jesus you can never die.

What is written: "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

False doctrine: "Jesus was wrong to say they were to be faithful unto death, because believers in Jesus can never die."

What is written:  Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.

And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.

But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Scripture says Tabitha was a disciple and a believer, but she got sick and died...Scripture said she DIED. Even though she was a believer scripture says SHE DIED. This is not me saying she died...this is not my imagination...this is the inspired writer of the book of Acts saying that she died. 

This same inspired writer of the book of Acts said that after Peter prayed and said to the body of Tabitha to arise, that she sat up and Peter presented her ALIVE. The same scripture that said she was DEAD is now saying she is ALIVE...Two words are both being used here...DEATH and ALIVE...even though she was a believer, she did get sick and she did die....even though Jesus said if you believe on me you will never die, she got sick and died...she is a New Testament believer and yet she died...she was also resurrected from the condition called DEATH and now she is called ALIVE.

You are using the word 'death' in a manner that is deceitful...you agree that if your spirit leaves your body then you are dead, but then when scripture uses this same word 'death' in regards to the resurrection you say it is impossible to be raised from the dead if you are a believer because believers can never die, even though scripture plainly shows believers who died and were resurrected from the dead...this is switching definitions back and forth...saying your spirit leaves your body is called death...When Tabitha got sick and died, you would be saying the same things if you said 'Tabitha was sick and her spirit left her body.

Tabitha's spirit left her body but then it came back into her body and she was raised from the dead, as Peter plainly said 'Tabitha arise' Arise from what? She arose from the dead...'arise' is the  same word scripture uses in other places in reference to the resurrection whether righteous or wicked, whether old testament or new.

Mark 8 "and after three days rise again"

Mark 12: 25 "For when they shall rise from the dead"

John 11:23  "Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 

Mark 5:41 "And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise."

Is. 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

The word 'awake' is also used in both old and new testament concerning the resurrection: 

Job 14:12 "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

Daniel 12:2 " And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11 -"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

You are saying it is impossible for a believer to be resurrected because you never die, however scripture plainly shows believers who were resurrected from the dead. The scriptures are not wrong...Believers will be resurrected from the dead...why? Because they are in a state when their spirit left their bodies...this is a different state that when their spirit was in their bodies..one is called life and the other is called death..you can't refer to an alternate definition of death when it refers to believers being resurrected..you yourself said about Lazarus that he was alive, but just wasn't there...THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING AS WELL- THAT IS THE STATE THAT IS CALLED DEATH. When people die, their spirit leaves their body...the two witnesses were KILLED...their DEAD BODIES laid in the street...but when the spirit of life from God entered into them what happened? They stood upon their feet...the spirit came back into them...it had previously left them when they were killed, but now it is back...just like you said...they were alive, they just 'weren't there.'

The 'just weren't there' part of them was their spirit that left them...and when it came back there they were raised from the dead...

These were believers...these were believers yet they died...these are scriptures...do not revert back to 'what you say and what is written are two different things...' These are written in my Bible just as much as they are in your Bible...you may think the phrase 'if you believe on me you will never die' trumps every other scripture concerning the death of a believer, but the phrase 'if you believe on me you will never die' is just as inspired as all the other texts...if it is understood you will see it is not one scripture being pitted against the others...they are all inspired and all work together to give the bigger picture...like a puzzle every piece contributes to the whole picture...you need the phrase 'if you believe on me you will never die,' and you also need the scriptures pertaining to the resurrection of the dead...

Stay with your own definition you gave about Lazarus..he is alive but not there...the problem is you don't stay with that definition...when it comes to the resurrection that definition goes out the window and you jump to another definition of death that never gets defined...All I am saying with resurrection is your spirit that had left now returns to the body...that is what you admit happened to Lazarus...this happens not only in the Old Testament but also in the New...

Blessings to you...Good to talk with you- Gary

[Selah7]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Leaving the DEAD who weren't raised at His return 

THE REST of the 'spiritually dead', dead in the dust who will be DELIVERED UP for judgment from the sea, death and hell.  
 

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (OVER THE PAST 1000 YEARS)


AND THEN THE DEAD 'WHO WEREN'T RAISED' AT THE JUST AND UNJUST RESURRECTION AT THE BEGINNING OF THE LORDS DAY

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I appreciate your posts, D but….  whoa!!  1 Corinthians 15:51 says “all.”  Everyone is raised (changed), including the spiritually dead.  I don’t understand your first green line.

Also, what do you mean by “dead in the dust?”

I don’t understand what you mean by the just and unjust resurrection.  My understanding is that the First Resurrection happens when Jesus returns at the 7th trump.  The second resurrection happens 1,000 years later (after the Millennium) at the GWTJ.  

Cheers!  

Edited April 10, 2022 by Selah7

[Selah7]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth
and believeth in Me,
shall never die. 

The body will die but the soul will never die. 

[missmuffet]

7 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

The body will die but the soul will never die. 

The soul will not die and the body will be resurrected. Even if it has been in the grave and there is only bones and dust left. 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

What is written is "Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye..at the last trump."

Doesn't mean that everyone will be alive until the last trump.  People will go to sleep every day up until that day.  

BUT on that VERY LAST DAY NOT all will 'SLEEP/DIE' as SOME will be ALIVE and remaining.   BUT EVERYONE IS GOING TO CHANGE IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. 

Those who have the MOB will be DYING/going to sleep THAT'S one change and the others WHO ARE ALIVE and REMAINING will be transformed.  

You YOURSELF KEEP SAYING IT  at the last trump.  THERE IS A MYSTERY that takes place at the last trump.  EVERYTHING else we have been told about life and death up until that point IS JUST REGULAR STUFF.  Every day life and death. No mystery there.  

BUT on the day CHRIST returns THINGS ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.  EVERYONE  WILL DIE OR BE CHANGED. 

NOT like any of the days leading up to the mystery being told.  


Now, if your explanation DIDN'T INCLUDE voiding out what is written, I would give it more thought.  If it didn't ASSIGN the MYSTERY to EVERYDAY WELL I GUESS IT WOULDN'T BE A MYSTERY IF IT WAS EVERYDAY WOULD IT?

Now WE HAVE gone over THIS POINT NUMEROUS TIMES.  I THANK YOU for you points of view but if we have discussed them a few times before can we let them now?   If you have NEW VIEWs or points to make I would love to hear them but this is just taking up valuable time for GODS WORK that needs to get done.  Hopefully you feel 1000 times more confident in your position as I do mine.  I can not give you anything new on this.  I have read your posts and know where you stand.  AGAIN thank you.  
 

Edited April 10, 2022 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

I appreciate your posts, D but….  whoa!!  1 Corinthians 15:51 says “all.”  Everyone is raised (changed), including the spiritually dead.  I don’t understand your first green line.

Also, what do you mean by “dead in the dust?”

I don’t understand what you mean by the just and unjust resurrection.  My understanding is that the First Resurrection happens when Jesus returns at the 7th trump.  The second resurrection happens 1,000 years later (after the Millennium) at the GWTJ.  

Cheers!  

I know you believe in that 'last day' 'resurrection and the second resurrection is at the end.   I can tell you exactly what you believe,  when you believe it will happen and why.  Can you say that about my beliefs?  Even if you don't agree with them?  


IF I dropped dead RIGHT THIS VERY SECOND, 
before this SEEN earth BODY HIT THE GROUND 

my spiritual body would be QUICKENEN and the 'seed' being MY WORKS?, would RISE UP IN THE BODY  THAT PLEASES GOD in the UNSEEN WORLD. 


(I have just EXPERIENCED A FIRST RESURRECTION.  
HOW CAN THAT BE, IT ISN'T THE LAST DAY?  NO WAY, cause a FIRST resurrection IS? AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE)  


The only connection to this world that would be left would be a  dead flesh carcass,  possibly good for spare parts and then to go back to dust of the earth

With the QUICKENING OF MY SPIRITUAL BODY, 
I would be raised UP in GLORY, immortal,  and would to go be with the LORD,  where He is and where He went to prepare a place for me.   

The next time ANYONE in this SEEN world would see me, would be either when THEY DIED (if they were saved) or AT THE LAST TRUMP when they were changed. 

AND when  they did  SEE  me, I would be on a white horse in the ARMY OF CHRIST. 
______________________________________________________________________________________.How does that line up with what is written?   

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

  EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.  Perfectly. 




1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

NOT EVERYONE DIES.  And we know this because THERE ARE SOME who will instead of dying still be alive and remaining.  

SO at that last day when Christ returns  ALL will be changed.  One way or another, 
drop dead or transform.  THAT IS EVERYONE.  


SO what takes place in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump concerning

ALL THE DEAD BEING RAISED?  I don't know.  Where is it written ALL THE DEAD ARE RAISED at that time? 





 
The FIRST RESURRECTION AS SOON AS YOU SEE LAST DAY, let me know.  If you have ANY VERSES that speak of a LAST DAY that HAPPENS 
AFTER CHRIST OPENS THE GRAVES ON THE LAST DAY OF THE OLD COVENANT, 


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

LET'S FIGURE OUT THIS FIRST.  who are they?  We can clearly see it is not ANYONE from the Tribulation or  who has been beheaded or took the mark of the beast BECAUSE THOSE ARE GOING TO BE MENTIONED NEXT. 

SO WHO ARE THEY?  Actually takes going back a few verses to find out who THEY ARE. 

HERE IS WHO I FIND 'THEY' TO BE.  DO YOU SEE ANOTHER THEY? 

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

First resurrection those who are given thrones and rule with Him 1000 years.  

And the FIRST RESURRECTION CONSISTS OF 

1.  Those who, with Christ, return in the armies of Heaven

2.  And the souls of them that were beheaded,

3. And those who didn't worship the beast or take the mark.  

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM???   We have SOULS FROM HEAVEN, we have SOULS FROM EARTH.  We have souls who weren't beheaded, We have souls who were.  We have souls who died, We have souls who didn't die.  

They are ALL of the FIRST resurrection.  THOSE on horses returning DON'T HAVE FLESH AND BLOOD BODIES THEY HAVE SPIRITUAL BODIES. Since we are raised in Glory they have that also.  Since they ALREADY HAVE AN INCORRUPTIBLE IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL BODY WHY WOULD THEY WANT ANYTHING DECAYING IN THE EARTH?  

Edited April 10, 2022 by DeighAnn

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Since they ALREADY HAVE AN INCORRUPTIBLE IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL BODY WHY WOULD THEY WANT ANYTHING DECAYING IN THE EARTH?  

I’m trying to understand your quote above.  Who said they did?  I don’t get it.

The “they” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4).

Honestly D; No, I can’t tell you exactly what you believe, when you believe it will happen and why.  Your writing style is a little confusing to me and it’s sometimes hard to follow what you’re trying to say.

Let me ask you:  Do you believe what I believe? 

Selah.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Selah7

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

I’m trying to understand your quote above.  Who said they did?  I don’t get it.

The “they” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4).

Honestly D; No, I can’t tell you exactly what you believe, when you believe it will happen and why.  Your writing style is a little confusing to me and it’s sometimes hard to follow what you’re trying to say.

Let me ask you:  Do you believe what I believe? 

Selah.

The 'they' are the Saints and are those who while living came to faith and believed in Him and so NEVER DIED but as Christ was dead and rose, even so them, and they are returning with Him. They are the saved, those who are of the first resurrection.  

In many areas and ways yes, we do believe the same, here, not so much.   When I read 'never die' 'pass through death' 'sow and raise' for me it is that simple.  I have two bodies one is sown the other is raised.  

You have two bodies.  You never die.  But some how you REMAIN dead to rise up on the last day, while at the same time being 'raised up' but not with a glorified body because that has something to do with returning to earth?   I do not understand  WHY.  It's NOT like you can do works and change your glory.  



If I said, 
 'You will NEVER HAVE no GREY HAIR.  And then said,  in 2 days I am taking all those with GREY HAIR, shopping.

WOULD you get ready to go shopping?


If I told you YOU WILL NEVER SLEEP and I told you in two hours I was coming to wake up those who were sleeping

WOULD you think I was coming to wake you up?


Why then I the Lord Jesus Christ told you YOU WILL NEVER DIE

Why would you ever THINK YOU would be found AMONG THE DEAD that rise?

 

You know what happened to people who died UNDER THE LAW?  

They died and were buried and they stayed in the grave ALL THE WAY up until Christ rose from the dead.

Only then were the GRAVES  opened and they rose up to heaven.  



How do you get 'elders' sitting on thrones in Rev 20:4?  I am very tired and going to sleep and will revisit in the morning.. D 

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Are you saying AFTER all the times I have stressed 'death of the flesh only'  'as in Adam we die' 'don't remain sleeping' 'no delay between death and resurrection'  and all the other ways I have said it,  you STILL DIDN'T UNDERSTAND what i was saying?  
 
YCF said it better

 

It's not that I don't understand. But when you say this, "no delay between death and resurrection" it throws a huge curve. This is tantamount to saying no one dies. No delay? And where is this idea of no delay in scripture? Scripture avoids things like time unless we read of specific durations. I have  seen a specific duration for a body to repose in the grave in Rev 20. 

So when Paul says some sleep till the resurrection, he's wrong? Surely the scripture says they sleep till the resurrection. If not, there isn't a general protos resurrection like in Rev 20. "And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

This is at the end. If "And they came to life..." is true then this shows a delay between death and resurrection.

Then the 2nd resurrection only occurs after 1000 years. A good deal of delay. This is the resurrection of the just and the unjust. When I read this "And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." I understand many here are justified and enter in to the Kingdom of heaven. It appears the default is justification and those not in the Book of Life are anomalous, or at least only a portion of those who appear before the throne. 

Here we have people whose names are written in the Book of Life that were dead in the grave for at least 1000 years before resurrection. 

This is the difference between your adamant dogmatism and what I read. I just don't see the idea of "no delay between death and resurrection" in scripture. Has it happened? I suppose it could have. But if 'no delay' means no time passes then it's instant transformation of the body. This happened twice that I know of but neither person is said to have died first. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Diaste