First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

DeighAnn · April 1, 2022

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

My thoughts are, nothing is said they were resurrected in glorified bodies, and this comes to mind:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The aforementioned are all after the Cross. These had to die "twice" or were taken to heaven to await their glorified bodies at the general Rapture of the church. I have thoughts of the souls' given white robes under the altar, asking how much longer.

If you believe they come back for a body, and that is the meaning of what is written below, HOW do you suppose it would have been written IF INDEED we switched bodies upon the death of one for the other. I am just curious because what I read here is just that. One dies the other rises. Every seed a body... I could show you how I would write it if it wasn't instant and there was a delay but it wouldn't like like this.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

With what BODY do they come....To every seed a body...not the body that will be...corruption doesn't inherit incorruption...

Dennis1209 · April 1, 2022

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Don't be afraid of disagreeing. It promotes thought on the subject.

1. The Wedding Feast presents no problems. Eve was taken out of Adam (Gen.2:23). Only the Church is taken out of Christ. The Church is made of believers ONLY - Old Testament or New. The Bride can only be Believers who are like Eve (Eph 5:29–30)

"23 ... bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The Bride is made only of Christians and their resurrection is BEFORE the Great Tribulation and Armageddon (Revelation 19).

2. If Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven BODILY, and our Lord Jesus is BODILY in heaven, there is no reason why all the others are not there. Hebrews 9:27 is upheld then. A man cannot die twice. There are those who advocate that those resurrected died again. I think they should reconsider. Hebrews 9:27 is emphatic, AND there is proof. Elijah was seen on the Mount of Transfiguration some 700 years later. Israel, who broke the Law, and were scattered to the "four winds" are gathered from earth (Ezekiel 37) AND heaven (Matt.24:31). Finally, there is no argument. There is not a single case of a man dying twice in the whole Bible. Students who hold this idea have not a single scripture. They invented it.

A "robe" is ones works (Rev.19:7-8). A "Tent" is a body (2nd Cor.5:1-3).

I listed the reasonable possibilities, and Enoch would still be an exception to Hebrews 9:27, would he not? I surmise from my studies that Elijah physically died much later after he handed over the mantle to Elisha. I believe Elijah was transported by a chariot and whirlwind elsewhere, the same as Philip being harpazo (snatched, forcefully taken away) to another location.

Are you familiar with the biblical evidence and chronology of the letter he personally wrote to a later king long after his departure?

AdHoc · April 1, 2022

18 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We will be in some disagreement shortly but I must say
Nicely put, don't want to start off with flattery, but I like to recognize these things,

What do you consider when going from spiritually dead to being made alive by coming to faith? Do you see or consider that a resurrection of the sprit?

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order...........

Do you connect these?

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is a ROOT to a TREE that has branches. This tree has been given promises and instructions in Gods word. They will carry on to the end of time.

SOME of those branches were broken off, and some new branches were grafted in.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THE NEW BRANCHES TO SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM THE OTHER BRANCHES BUT NOT THE ROOT AND EMBARK ON THEIR OWN JOURNEY? What is written that allows this?

I am not going to agree. IF this were true, they could not have been grafted unto the same root with the original branches and made one. There would have been no reason to knock down the wall that once separated them. There is ONLY ONE ROOT. So this may cause an issue. I PROPOSE we don't bring up Israel or the church the discussion and just use what is written. Does that sound good? I sure hope so.

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
2000 years ago
every SAVED man since
the alive and remaining

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end,
the end of the millennium in which these things take place

when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Satan into lake of fire

1 Corinthians 15:27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

Christ and all those who died under the law - now finding forgiveness through the blood of the Lamb Slain and coming to the Lord are the the captivity led captive the graves opened to show death has been defeated for the SAVED.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
the graves opened, the captivity led captive the END OF THE OLD COVENANT OF SIN AND DEATH

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW COVENANT under grace with the GIFT of Salvation, never die, pass through death, never see decay, never decompose because risen in spiritual body

This is the thing about coming back for a body AT A 'last day'

DECOMP CAN'T RESURRECT IMMORTAL, ONLY IMPERISHABLE.

I don't UNDERSTAND WHERE 'HARVEST' BECOMES THE GAME PLAN FOR LIFE AND DEATH AND THE ORDER of things. The only harvest I am aware STATED to be about the end is

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Which I see as

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Isaiah 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

It's gonna take a miracle, BUT I AM WILLING TO PRAY THAT GODS TRUTH BE BROUGHT TO LIGHT,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I hope I can honor yu with answers to all your points. But may I point out that some of your objections were answered by my initial statements. But, I know ... there was a lot.

1. Resurrection is ONLY for the BODY. REBIRTH is for the spirit of man (Jn.3:6).

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what BODY do they come? (1 Co 15:35)

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you (Ro 8:11)

2. the rest of your argument is based on your understanding of the Olive Tree of Romans 11. To this I have two things to say. (1) Resurrection is not mentioned in the matter of the Olive Tree. But (2) I will deal with it anyway to honor your seeking attitude. This is what the Olive Tree is about:

God made man to rule the earth (Gen.1:26-28). Adam fell and instead of ruling, man was ruled by the "Prince of the Power of the air". God now had two problems. They were; (i) man's sin-nature and the sins that came out of it, and (ii) man's DISPOSITION which was at enmity with God. God started His recovery of Genesis 1:26-28 by taking an idol-worshiping Syrian, Abraham, and giving him PROMISES. Some 430 years later, Abraham's seed had become a great nation and God led them out of bondage, through a wilderness, to the Land He had promised Abraham.

The history of Israel needs no lecture. They were given a Law to make them holy enough to allow God to dwell with them, broke it so badly that God kicked them out of the Land, and when he opened the way to return to this Land, only about 2.5% of Judah and Benjamin returned. But God can work with a remnant and about 400 years later, Jesus, designated King of Israel and Heir to the world, approached Israel with the KINGDOM of Heaven - a Kingdom that would bring heaven's rules to earth.

A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4, Ezekiel 31). When Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth after His return, the Overcomers of the Church will rule the earth. Israel, who were offered the Kingdom, WILL NOT (Matt.21:43). They refused the Kingdom and murdered the King. Normally, anyone, even God, would leave it like that. But God made PROMISES to Abraham by COVENANT. So God was faced with two problems:

Jesus was King of a Nation and had the right to rule over them IN THEIR LAND
The Nation had to be forgiven but they would would not accept the condition of sins forgiven - FAITH

The Olive Tree is Christ's KINGDOM - not Israel (they are the VINE), and not the Church (they are True Vine). The Olive Tree is Christ's physical Kingdom which shows how and why Israel is restored by GRACE WITHOUT FAITH. This RESTORATION is predicted by the prophets right up to Zacharias in Luke Chapter 1. It is the RECOVERY of Israel, NOT to be kings with Christ as was offered, but a NATIONAL restoration as PROMISED by the Covenant of promise with Abraham.

In Christ's Kingdom there will be THREE PEOPLES:

The Church, whose OVERCOMERS will be co-kings with Christ RULING the earth (Lk.19:17-19)
Israel who will be restored to their Land and HOST Emmanuel - Jesus, and SERVE Him because He will physically live in Jerusalem
The Nations who survived the Great Tribulation and Armageddon (Zech.14:16) - who will be the SUBJECTS of Christ's Kingdom

The Olive Tree shows how God restores Israel LEGALLY - because Israel remain hardened and in UNBELIEF till our Lord bursts out of the clouds above Jerusalem and is SEEN. God may still forgive their sins because;

Jesus paid for the sin and sins OF THE WORLD (Jn.1.29, 2nd Jn.2:2) - so the legal ground is in place
God had a Covenant with Israel (which He does not have with the nations). The MERCY Israel receive (Romans Chapters 9 and 11) is judicially allowed because Christ's death paid for ALL sin and ALL sins AND God Promised it by Covenant. Normally FAITH is necessary, but a Covenant and prophets Promises are applied legally to Israel to relieve them of their sins.

THAT .. is the Olive Tree. It is Christ's Kingdom IN THE MAKING (while Israel are still cut out). It is finally completed, NOT in the Millennium (because that is the time when Christians are chastised), but NEW JERUSALEM. New Jerusalem will rule (Rev.22:5) and it is made of Christ (the Holy Root), The wild branches (The Church - the Wall of the City) and the natural branches (Israel - the Gates of the City).

Resurrection is never mentioned in the matter of the Olive Tree. It depicts something totally unrelated.

AdHoc · April 1, 2022

7 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I listed the reasonable possibilities, and Enoch would still be an exception to Hebrews 9:27, would he not? I surmise from my studies that Elijah physically died much later after he handed over the mantle to Elisha. I believe Elijah was transported by a chariot and whirlwind elsewhere, the same as Philip being harpazo (snatched, forcefully taken away) to another location.

Are you familiar with the biblical evidence and chronology of the letter he personally wrote to a later king long after his departure?

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God (Heb 11:5)

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, ... 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Ki 2:1, 11)

I am aware of the matter with king Jehoram. There is no conclusive proof that Elijah was already raptured. Better commentaries than I can write are available. Here is one from "Apologetics Press".

https://apologeticspress.org/did-eljiah-send-a-letter-to-king-jehoram-years-after-the-prophet-was-already-dead-5366/

Dennis1209 · April 1, 2022

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

If you believe they come back for a body, and that is the meaning of what is written below, HOW do you suppose it would have been written IF INDEED we switched bodies upon the death of one for the other. I am just curious because what I read here is just that. One dies the other rises. Every seed a body... I could show you how I would write it if it wasn't instant and there was a delay but it wouldn't like like this.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

With what BODY do they come....To every seed a body...not the body that will be...corruption doesn't inherit incorruption...

That is a very good question if I understand it correctly? If we are talking about the souls under the altar presumably martyred having white robes given to them, asking how long...

I suspect for some reason they do not know where they are time-wise in the Tribulation, or they would not ask how much longer. Or, are these martyrs awaiting before the official start of the Tribulation?

When do these in Heaven under the altar receive glorified bodies? It would depend on when these souls were martyred, were they murdered in the time period between the general Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. Or during the Tribulation.

Dennis1209 · April 2, 2022

17 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God (Heb 11:5)

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, ... 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Ki 2:1, 11)

I am aware of the matter with king Jehoram. There is no conclusive proof that Elijah was already raptured. Better commentaries than I can write are available. Here is one from "Apologetics Press".

https://apologeticspress.org/did-eljiah-send-a-letter-to-king-jehoram-years-after-the-prophet-was-already-dead-5366/

It is just something I studied and considered. I believe the chronology and dates of the kings of Israel and Judah to be accurate. If so, that poses a logical question? All my Hebrew lexicons agree that heaven in 2 Kings 2:1 is in the sky where the clouds are and birds fly. I figured you knew where I was going.

DeighAnn · April 2, 2022

5 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Sorry, D, but I don’t believe it means a resurrection. What does 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 say again?

AFTERWARD THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST’S AT HIS COMING

When Christ returns the planet earth has

those who have endured to the end - the alive and remaining

those who have taken the mark of the beast

those who are dead (unsaved) in the dust/grave/hell/ of the earth

WHICH do you consider to be HIS?

ALL of those who received the gift of SALVATION, the 'saved' NEVER DIE,

so they can't be AMONGST the 'dead' who are in the dust of the earth/in hell/hades/graves/in death/dead

because they are already risen.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

(((1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, AND TO EVERY SEED HIS OWN BODY)))

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (WHAT BODY DO THEY RISE WITH?)

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits

of them that slept. (WHO was 'dead'/in the dust/in the grave when Christ rose? those who had been UNDER THE LAW, the law that could not forgive but NOW with the New Covenant we have A SAVIOR. Saves us from DEATH. The death that came upon ADAM BUT now Christ's blood washes us clean)

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death,(of the flesh body)

by man came also the resurrection of the dead.(of the spiritual body)

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
(but every man in his own RANK, Christ KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, every other man as Generals, Lieutenant General, Major General, Brigadier General, Colonel etc.

afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

Who is already with HIM?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So all who have died with the Gift of Salvation are with HIM ALREADY. So who would be HIS?

DeighAnn · April 2, 2022