Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[DeighAnn]

Just now, AdHoc said:

All we have to do is study the death of our Lord Jesus.
His BODY was placed in a tomb on the surface of the earth
His SOUL went to Hades in the heart of the earth
He commended His spirit to His Father in heaven

 JESUS did things FOR US so that WE would never have to do them and one of those is going to hell. 

So I am not going to do that discussion. 

Remember 'never die'?  

Our approach to Gods word is so far off, but I find that to be with all who believe in pre trib so it isn't personal.   It just truly makes us 'a house divided' in almost all ways.  

So once again before we go down this rabbit hole, I am going to   

 

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If I may - a small addition. "The Holy Spirit has come to dwell WITH us and IN us" (Jn.14.17b).

Man is Tripartite - body, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7, 1st Thess.5:23). He is built like, and even called, the Temple of God. The Temple of God has an Outer Court, which speaks for our bodies. It has an Holy Place which speaks for our souls. And it has the Holy of Holies, which speaks for our human spirits. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit ONLY enters our human spirit (Jn.3:6). At human death the three parts are sundered. But this does not hurt the Holy Spirit for He only dwells in the spirit. The spirit of man returns to God to await the resurrection (Eccl.3:21, 12:7).

In 1st Corinthians Chapter 5 we have an incestuous brother. God was prepared to slay this man (via Satan) to protect His holiness. By killing the body the man could no longer defile the spirit where God dwells. The spirit would be "saved" by the man's physical death. The sins are stopped by death and the body is raised incorruptible. So there is no threat to God's holiness after death.

I disagree in part. Our soulish part is our mind, memories, emotions, affections and most of all our WILL. Our spirit and soul are tied very closely together and will never be separated. Where our spirit goes, so goes the soul.

Why Jesus said, "

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:," 

He was saying that He was going to trust His Father God to bring Him back up out of hell. He had accomplished all He could do for our salvation, right up to dying. The rest would be up to the Heavenly Father.

 

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This verse causes me to believe the soul and spirit are tied very tightly together: only the word of God can divide them.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Where does it say the spirit goes it alone? 

I've never read the three body parts are sundered.  Where is that written?  

Isn't THIS in direct conflict with 

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

and 

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

All the saints who have died and are waiting in heaven, are waiting for their resurrection body. That means, they don't have it yet, and will not until the day of resurrection.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All the saints who have died and are waiting in heaven, are waiting for their resurrection body. That means, they don't have it yet, and will not until the day of resurrection.

I keep hearing people say that.  SURE would be a welcome relief to see it written somewhere in the WORDS OF GOD but the only Scripture I can find for those waiting 'to be resurrected' when Christ returns,  ARE THE DEAD.  

Who 'rises' when Christ returns?  THE DEAD.  

WHERE IS IT WRITTEN THOSE who NEVER DIE 'will be raised'. 

Where is it written those who have been 'made alive' 'will be raised'?  

know why those things are written? 

BECAUSE AS YOU SAID the saints are ALREADY in heaven
AKA ALREADY 'RISEN'
AKA ALREADY 'RESURRECTED'
AKA ALREADY 'with the LORD'...and with what body were they raised?




One thing FOR SURE,  they are NOT amongst the DEAD. 


Only the dead are amongst the dead.  Only those who DON'T HAVE A LORD AND SAVIOUR are amongst the dead.  Only those who have NEVER come to faith are amongst the dead.  Only those who have NEVER been BORN OF THE SPIRIT are amongst the dead.  Only those who have never received the gift of Salvation are amongst the dead.  Only those who have never died and RISEN WITH CHRIST are amongst the dead.  


SO YES, I believe all the saints are in heaven waiting to RETURN WITH CHRIST. 

What I don't see ANYWHERE WRITTEN, IS  them GOING TO HEAVEN WITHOUT A BODY

You see, I am one of those beings that believes what is written AND NOT WHAT I AM TOLD and JESUS SAID I WILL NEVER DIE and I believe HIM.  I believe that means we CANT BE amongst and of 'THE DEAD', be THE DEAD 'in Christ'(a different subject) or not

Which means I BELIEVE that we sow A NATURAL body and are raised A SPIRITUAL body EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.  Hence the robes and talking and feet and crying and falling down to worship God and being where He is and and I don't have questions like WHY prepare a place for SPIRITs?  Why use 'abodes'?  SEEMS KINDA DECEPTIVE to ALWAYS put HEAVEN in terms of what we know and see and live right now in THESE BODIES, if we won't be knowing and seeing and living on in our SPIRITUAL bodies.  

If EVERY body when SOWN produces the seed that God gives a body to, then HOW can there be ANYTHING BUT THAT TAKING PLACE?  Especially without ANY SCRIPTURE that says something to the contrary.  



Did it take 2000 years for Christ to be resurrected out from the dead?

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

That NEWNESS of life isn't just in the here and now, it CONTINUES without delay.  Was HE resurrected without a BODY?  NO so how could we?  Wouldn't that make this VOID?

 

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

We have ALREADY come OUT FROM THE DEAD.  We just got to do it BEFORE DEATH HAD HIS WAY WITH US.  

WE BEST be thanking the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for that work HE DID FOR US.  


 

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

THAT ISN'T JUST IN THIS BODY and in this present life in the natural body but that is in the spiritual body, never dying and following Him by being WHERE HE IS.  Where they walk and talk and worship and rest and WILL BE returning with Him at which time the DEAD will resurrect and will SEE the alive and remaining changed when THEY go be with the Lord for ever.  

DO YOU KNOW WHY THE DEAD CAN'T MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR?  Because it is a resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust dead,  and THE DEAD don't stand in judgment for 1000 years MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE to go be with the Lord for all that time which also makes it makes IT IMPOSSIBLE for them to rule and reign with Christ for the next 1000 years.  BUT IT IS VERY CONVENIENT for US as there has to be PEOPLE to be priests to and reign with Christ over.  If the DEAD didn't raise up there would ONLY BE THE SAVED and we don't need to rule and reign with Christ over ourselves.


I am not saying there is not an 'unseen' world happening NOW, I am saying ONE IS JUST AS REAL AS THE OTHER.  Just because OUR EYES can't see it doesn't mean it is any less real that this world right now is.  Just as TANGIBLE.   We are living a SHADOW of what is to come.   EYE HATH NOT SEEN NOR EAR HEARD

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



 

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Can it be made any clearer that EVERY SEED HAS A BODY?  And we are absent from THIS BODY and present with the Lord AND 

CLOTHED UPON. 



 

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree in part. Our soulish part is our mind, memories, emotions, affections and most of all our WILL. Our spirit and soul are tied very closely together and will never be separated. Where our spirit goes, so goes the soul.

Why Jesus said, "

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:," 

He was saying that He was going to trust His Father God to bring Him back up out of hell. He had accomplished all He could do for our salvation, right up to dying. The rest would be up to the Heavenly Father.

 

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This verse causes me to believe the soul and spirit are tied very tightly together: only the word of God can divide them.

O.K. You're entitled to think that, but I think that Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 are defining, especially when we see that the soul goes DOWN to Hades. In eleven cases of a man's death in Old and New Testament he "gave UP the spirit" our Lord Jesus included. And we know that God did not let His SOUL abide in Hades (in the heart of the earth - Matt.12:40).

Perhaps not so defining but equally interesting is the fact that our spirit is Made (from existing materials - "Asah" Heb.) while our soul is "CREATED" (as a new creature - "Bara" Heb.). In Genesis 2:7 the soul is made of breath, but the soul "BECAME" ... indicating that it was not there before. Isaiah 43:7 seems to confirm this.

Perhaps another difficulty with your understanding is the rebirth. In John 3:6 the rebirth by the Holy Spirit is only for the human spirit. John 4:24 confirms this. I think that if the soul and spirit were so inseparable that the rebirth would affect the soul as well.

Mary, in Luke 1:46–47, had different reactions for her soul and spirit when she heard the news of her pregnancy - not defining, but interesting.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

The spirit of man has the rebirth, but the soul of man is "saved" by fiery trials (1st Pet.1:6-8. The single case of the spirit being saved is by the violent death of the body (1st Cor.5).

I guess it boils down to how each of us applies the Word.

Blessings

[AdHoc]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 JESUS did things FOR US so that WE would never have to do them and one of those is going to hell. 

So I am not going to do that discussion. 

Remember 'never die'?  

Our approach to Gods word is so far off, but I find that to be with all who believe in pre trib so it isn't personal.   It just truly makes us 'a house divided' in almost all ways.  

So once again before we go down this rabbit hole, I am going to   

 

Good decision. The word "hell" does not appear in scripture. It was used commonly (and inaccurately) by our esteemed translators after they had been under a thousand years of Roman doctrine. The three words are;
1.  Gehenna - denoting the Lake of Fire
2.  Sheol - Heb./ Hades - Gk. - the place of the souls of dead men
3.  Tartaroo - the place of spirits adjacent to Hades where the angels who mated with women in Noah's time are in prison

I know that the vast majority of Christians use the concept of "hell". It proves my point that the Roman Catholic myths abound in Christianity. Even the 49 best Hebrew and Greek scholars of the AV* fell under Rome's spell.

* I still think that the Authorized Version is a splendid translation and use it extensively.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All the saints who have died and are waiting in heaven, are waiting for their resurrection body. That means, they don't have it yet, and will not until the day of resurrection.

I understand that the dead RISE. In death we are unclean and naked. Death is God's enemy. And there is not a single scripture that says that dead men go to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus went to Hades (Matt.12:40, Eph.4:8-9). After He ROSE He still had not "ascended" to the Father (Jn.20:17). The Old Testament saints who rose after Jesus came out of graves that had to be opened. In Revelation 20 "Hades gives up the dead". In 1st Thessalonians 4 the dead Christians RISE, meet the living on the surface of the earth and then "TOGETHER" are caught away. This only when the Lord "descends".

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree in part. Our soulish part is our mind, memories, emotions, affections and most of all our WILL. Our spirit and soul are tied very closely together and will never be separated. Where our spirit goes, so goes the soul.

Shalom, iamlamad.

That's just nuts when you think about what the words mean: "Our breathing part is our mind, memories, emotions, affections and most of all our WILL. Our breath and air-breathing-creature are tied very closely together and will never be separated. Where our breath goes, so goes the air-breathing-creature." Do you HEAR how ridiculous that sounds?!

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why Jesus said, "

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:," 

He was saying that He was going to trust His Father God to bring Him back up out of hell. He had accomplished all He could do for our salvation, right up to dying. The rest would be up to the Heavenly Father.

 

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") gave up His breath! Yeeshuwa` never went a "hell!" He went to the GRAVE, to Sh'owl ("asked about")!

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This verse causes me to believe the soul and spirit are tied very tightly together: only the word of God can divide them.

What this is saying is that "God's word is life-giving and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even the the dividing asunder of an air-breathing-creature from its breath, and of the joints (cartilege) and marrow (the center of bones, carving each away from the bone itself), and is a determiner between the thoughts and the background intentions of the core of one's being!"

While a person is an air-breathing-creature, he is dependent upon his breath, but God's Word can quickly separate a person from his breath!

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

O.K. You're entitled to think that, but I think that Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 are defining, especially when we see that the soul goes DOWN to Hades. In eleven cases of a man's death in Old and New Testament he "gave UP the spirit" our Lord Jesus included. And we know that God did not let His SOUL abide in Hades (in the heart of the earth - Matt.12:40).

Perhaps not so defining but equally interesting is the fact that our spirit is Made (from existing materials - "Asah" Heb.) while our soul is "CREATED" (as a new creature - "Bara" Heb.). In Genesis 2:7 the soul is made of breath, but the soul "BECAME" ... indicating that it was not there before. Isaiah 43:7 seems to confirm this.

Shalom, AdHoc.

You've got to get a better handle on this. You're not far off, but when God created the MAN (Hebrew: haa'Aadaam, "the Man," NOT "the body of the man") he made a living, air-breathing creature, by puffing into his nostrils the puff of living things. THAT'S what Genesis 2:7 says!

The "heart of the earth" is simply a "core or hollowed out place of the earth." In Yeeshuwa`s case, that was a tomb in which He was laid. Again, "hadees" is Greek for "UNSEEN!" Do you really think that our Lord would be talking about a Greek god or the Greek mythological place of the dead?! He was talking about the fact that when one dies, he is placed in a grave or tomb or sepulcre or crypt OUT OF SIGHT of the living, loved ones he left. "Out of sight is out of mind" which is why most visit cemetaries and tombs - to REMEMBER them! The Hebrew word is "sh'owl" (often written "sheol") and means "ASKED ABOUT," for that is what children do when they are taken to the cemetaries and tombs. They "ASK ABOUT" their departed loved ones!

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Perhaps another difficulty with your understanding is the rebirth. In John 3:6 the rebirth by the Holy Spirit is only for the human spirit. John 4:24 confirms this. I think that if the soul and spirit were so inseparable that the rebirth would affect the soul as well.

Mary, in Luke 1:46–47, had different reactions for her soul and spirit when she heard the news of her pregnancy - not defining, but interesting.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

The spirit of man has the rebirth, but the soul of man is "saved" by fiery trials (1st Pet.1:6-8. The single case of the spirit being saved is by the violent death of the body (1st Cor.5).

I guess it boils down to how each of us applies the Word.

Blessings

I'm not going to take a lot of time to show each one of these verse's context; it makes my posts too long and nobody reads them. Instead, just know that the "soul" is the air-breathing-creature, the body that is still breathing, and the "spirit" is the breath of an individual. This "breath" also implies the words and sounds that a person makes WITH that breath, conveying also one's thoughts and opinions to others. Read each of these passages with THESE definitions in place and see if it doesn't make each passage clearer in the reading.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Good decision. The word "hell" does not appear in scripture. It was used commonly (and inaccurately) by our esteemed translators after they had been under a thousand years of Roman doctrine. The three words are;
1.  Gehenna - denoting the Lake of Fire
2.  Sheol - Heb./ Hades - Gk. - the place of the souls of dead men
3.  Tartaroo - the place of spirits adjacent to Hades where the angels who mated with women in Noah's time are in prison

I know that the vast majority of Christians use the concept of "hell". It proves my point that the Roman Catholic myths abound in Christianity. Even the 49 best Hebrew and Greek scholars of the AV* fell under Rome's spell.

* I still think that the Authorized Version is a splendid translation and use it extensively.

Shalom, again, AdHoc.

Actually, 

1. Ge-enna (two epsilons back-to-back without rough breathing) is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Geey-Hinnowm," referring to the "Valley (of the son) of Hinnowm," the city dump of the Old City of Jerusalem. It is also close to where the kings of Israel and Yhudah ("Judah") placed their judgment seats when judging capital crimes. If a person was acquitted, He was to enter the golden gate ON THE RIGHT to offer sacrifices to God in thanksgiving. If a person was condemned, the sentence was carried out in Geey-ben-Hinnowm ON THE LEFT, where the fires were always burning. When Yeshua` sets up His Judgment Seat, He will likewise judge in that valley.

Matthew 25:31-34, 41 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:'
...

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:'"

 

However, one should realize that it is the JOB of a King of Israel to be the Supreme Court Judge! Thus, He will so judge THROUGHOUT the Millennium, not just at the beginning of the Millennium, when He holds the war tribunal against those nations who participated in the war for His Land, and not just at the end of the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ)! The GWTJ is just when the Second General Resurrection will occur for the FINAL Judgment.

2. Sh'owl/hadees is NOT "the place of the souls of dead men!" It is the GRAVE from which these dead men will be raised to life. Those who belong to the Messiah will be raised to eternal life at His Second Coming at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, but those who do NOT belong to Him, will be raised at the END of the Millennium for the GWTJ and the consignment to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur (or the Lake of Burning Sulfur). Sulfur will melt to a liquid and burn with a blue flame that can only be seen in the dark. It gives off sulfur-dioxide when burning in the presence of oxygen, at 320 to 374 degrees Fahrenheit. It's an explosive risk at temperatures above 450 degrees Fahrenheit.

3. Angels did NOT "mate with women" during Noach's time. Human beings, who had so high an opinion of themselves as to call themselves "sons of God" and thought they were ENTITLED to reverence from other men, TOOK THE DAUGHTERS OF MERE MEN BY FORCE and made them their wives! This human trafficking is what made God so angry!

Genesis 6:1-7 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said,

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years!"

4 There were giants (Hebrew: nfaliym = lumberjacks) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said,

"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them!"

No mention of angels at all in His judgment, He just said that the MAN was wicked!

I hope this helps.

I agree with you about the AV (the KJV). That's why I use it the most. There are certain times when I will use the NIV, but it's just to make the words more comfortable to the modern English ear. The AV or KJV should probably be called the KJAV, for it was the ONE version of the English Bible that was authorized by King James I of England to be used in England's pulpits.