Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The ONLY ONE who was resurrected in the "firstfruits" was Yeeshuwa` the Messiah, and I bring up the singular to show that fact!

BUT it is SINGULAR even when speaking of the PLURAL, SO I am not following WHY you insist that it is ONLY CHRIST being raised up. 

If that was the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, then WHY WERE THE GRAVES OPENED?  WHY WERE PEOPLE RESURRECTED?  WHY WERE RESURRECTED PEOPLE SEEN?  WHY DIDN'T EVERYONE SEE THEM?  


536. aparché 
Strong's Concordance
aparché: the beginning of a sacrifice, i.e. the first fruit
Original Word: ἀπαρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aparché
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ar-khay')
Definition: the beginning of a sacrifice, the first fruit
Usage: the first-fruits, the earliest crop of the year, hence also met., for example, of the earliest converts in a district; there is evidence in favor of rendering in some passages merely by: sacrifice, gift.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and arché
Definition
the beginning of a sacrifice, i.e. the first fruit
NASB Translation
first convert (1), first fruits (6), first piece (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 536: ἀπαρχή

ἀπαρχή, ἀπαρχῆς, ἡ (from ἀπάρχομαι:
a. to offer firstlings or first-fruits;

b. to take away the first-fruits; cf. ἀπό in ἀποδεκατόω), in the Sept. generally equivalent to רֵאשִׁית; the first-fruits of the productions of the earth (both those in a natural state and those prepared for use by hand), which were offered to God; cf. Winers RWB under the word Erstlinge (BB. DD. under the word First-fruits): ἡ ἀπαρχή namely, τοῦ φυράματος, the first portion of the dough, from which sacred loaves were to be prepared (Numbers 15:19-21), Romans 11:16. Hence, in a transferred use, employed a. of persons consecrated to God, leading the rest in time: ἀπαρχή τῆς Ἀχαΐας the first person in Achaia to enroll himself as a Christian, 1 Corinthians 16:15; with εἰς Χριστόν added, Romans 16:5; with a reference to the moral creation effected by Christianity all the Christians of that age are called ἀπαρχή τίς (a kind of first-fruits) τῶν τοῦ Θεοῦ κτισμάτων, James 1:18 (see Huther at the passage) (noteworthy is εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ Θεός ἀπαρχήν etc. as first-fruits] 2 Thessalonians 2:13 L Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading; Christ is called ἀπαρχή τῶν κεκοιμημένων as the first one recalled to life of them that have fallen asleep, 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23 (here the phrase seems also to signify that by his case the future resurrection of Christians is guaranteed; because the first-fruits forerun and are, as it were, a pledge and promise of the rest of the harvest).

b. of persons superior in excellence to others of the same class: so in Revelation 14:4 of a certain class of Christians sacred and dear to God and Christ beyond all others (Schol. ad Euripides, Or. 96 ἀπαρχή ἐλέγετο οὐ μόνον πρῶτον τῇ τάξει, ἀλλά καί τό πρῶτον τῇ τιμή).

c. οἱ ἔχοντες τήν ἀπαρχήν τοῦ πνεύματος who have the first-fruits (of future blessings) in the Spirit (τοῦ πνεύματος is genitive of apposition), Romans 8:23; cf. what Winer § 50, 8 a. says in opposition to those (e. g. Meyer, but see Weiss in edition 6) who take τοῦ πνεύματος as a partitive genitive, so that οἱ ἔχοντες τήν ἀπαρχήν τοῦ πνεύματος are distinguished from the great multitude who will receive the Spirit subsequently. (In Greek writings from (Sophocles) Herodotus down.)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firstfruits.
From a compound of apo and archomai; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. The (Jewish) first-fruit (figuratively) -- first-fruits.

 to offer firstlings or first-fruits;


I'm saying it is coming across LIKE IT CAN ONLY MEAN CHRIST, but as you can see that just isn't so. 

 

Romans 8:23 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ πνεύματος
NAS: having the first fruits of the Spirit,
KJV: which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
INT: ourselves the first-fruit of the Spirit
Romans 11:16 N-NFS
GRK: δὲ ἡ ἀπαρχὴ ἁγία καὶ
NAS: If the first piece [of dough] is holy,
KJV: if the firstfruit [be] holy,
INT: moreover the first-fruit [be] holy also

Romans 16:5 N-NFS
GRK: ὅς ἐστιν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀσίας
NAS: who is the first convert to Christ
KJV: who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto
INT: who is a first-fruit of Achaia

1 Corinthians 15:20 N-NFS
GRK: ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων
NAS: from the dead, the first fruits of those
KJV: [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
INT: from among [the] dead first-fruit of those fallen asleep

1 Corinthians 15:23 N-NFS
GRK: ἰδίῳ τάγματι ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα
NAS: Christ the first fruits, after
KJV: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
INT: own order [the] first-fruit Christ then

1 Corinthians 16:15 N-NFS
GRK: ὅτι ἐστὶν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀχαίας
NAS: of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia,
KJV: it is the firstfruits of Achaia,
INT: that it is first-fruit of Achaia

James 1:18 N-AFS
GRK: εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἀπαρχήν τινα τῶν
NAS: that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
KJV: a kind of firstfruits of his
INT: to be us first-fruits a sort of

Revelation 14:4 N-NFS
GRK: τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ
NAS: men as first fruits to God
KJV: among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God
INT: the men [as] firstfruits to God

Strong's Greek 536
8 Occurrences

the first-fruits of the productions of the earth 

the first portion 

So YES, Jesus was the FIRST of the Harvest but the HARVEST of them who slept had to have taken place 

OR ELSE He would NOT have been the first fruits OF THEM THAT SLEPT but of all that were ever saved

I understand the DISTINCTION may not sit well, but THAT doesn't change what is written.  OUR UNDERSTANDING is to come FROM what is written, not the other way around.  


WHEN WERE THE GRAVES OPENED?  

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,

to proclaim liberty to the captives, 

and the opening of the prison to them that are bound  

(DIDN'T HE LEAD THE CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE)

 

WHEN WAS THE LAST DAY OF THE OLD COVENANT, OF THE LORD WALKING ON EARTH AS THE SON OF MAN IN THE FLESH?  

WHAT WAS HIS HE SUPPOSED TO DO?  

37  All that gives Me the Father to Me will come and the coming to Me, no not shall I cast out

38  For I have come down from heaven not that I should do the will of Me but the will of the {One} having sent Me

39  This now is the will of the {One} having sent Me that all that He has given Me none I should lose of it, but will raise up it in the last day

40  This for is the will of the Father of Me that everyone beholding the Son and believing in Him should have life eternal and will raise up him I in the last day

 

47  Truly truly I say to you the believing has life eternal

48  I am the bread of life

49  The fathers of You ate in the wilderness the manna and died

50  This is the bread from heaven coming down that anyone of it may eat and not die

WHY IS THERE NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS?  

53  Said therefore to them Jesus

Truly truly I say to you if NOT you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man and shall have drunk of Him the blood

NOT you have life in yourselves. 

 

54  The eating of Me the flesh and drinking of Me the blood has life eternal and I will raise up him in the last day

The LAST DAY we have LIFE IN THE NATURAL BODY

is WHEN we are resurrected to LIFE IN THE SPIRIT BODY, to go live with the LIVING FATHER.  


 

55  The for flesh of Me TRUE is food and the blood of Me TRUE is drink

56 The eating of Me the flesh and drinking of Me the blood in Me abides and I in him

57  As sent Me the living Father and I live because of the Father also the feeding on Me he also will live because of Me

58  This is the bread from heaven having come down


not as ate the fathers and died.  


The eating this bread will live to the age.  


The living do NOT resurrect out from the dead.  

 

 

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What is really written is that at the great earthquake, the graves were opened. No one rose yet, because Christ had not risen yet. God opened the graves in preparation. Then, when Jesus rose, I believe He CHOSE to raise the elders of the OT with Him. I doubt if it was accidental. Imagine, if Adam were one of them, there would be more that just one sentence. It would be HISTORIC! 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nope. That's not what the Scriptures say. Read it again:

Matthew 27:50-53 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 

Pay attention to the punctuation!

Let's look at the Greek just to confirm:

Kata Maththaion 27:50-53 (Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894)

50 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν κράξας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ ἀφῆκε τὸ πνεῦμα.
51 καὶ ἰδού, τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη εἰς δύο ἀπὸ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω· καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη· καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν·
52 καὶ τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν· καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθη·
53 καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν, καὶ ἐνεφανίσθησαν πολλοῖς.

This transliterates to ...

50 ho de Ieesous palin kraxas foonee megalee afeeke to pneuma.
51 kai idou, to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee eis duo apo anoothen heoos katoo; kai hee gee eseisthee; kai hai petrai eschistheesan;
52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan; kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegerthee;
53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon mata teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin, kai enefanistheesan pollois.

A word-for-word translation would be ...

50 the but Jesus again crying in-a-voice loud sent-away the breath.
51 and behold, the inner-veil of-the temple was-torn into two from top to bottom; and the earth was-shaken and the rocks were-split;
52 and the tombs were-opened; and many bodies of-the having-fallen-asleep holy-ones were-awakened;
53 and having-gone-forth out of-the tombs after the resurrection of-Him, they-entered into the holy city, and appeared to-many.

All of the highlighted portions above happened at Yeeshuwa`s death. The rest happened after His resurrection. If that wasn't true, then why mention all this here in the record of His death? These awakened holy ones were awakened when the Master died, but they didn't come out of the tombs until after His resurrection.

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am convinced they got their resurrection body right then.

Someone died and went to heaven, but eventually got prayed back to their body. while in heaven, they noticed a difference in looks between Father Abraham and some of the others they met. They asked him why he appeared different. He told them that he, along with a few others, got their resurrection bodied when Jesus rose.

This is fictional and in error. I remind you that Yeeshuwa` the Messiah ALONE was the Firstfruits of the Resurrection. There were no others.

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"'A very few of us have already had our resurrection as you see in my own case.'

'I have been waiting for some time to ask, I replied, 'what made the great difference between your appearance and those other happy spirits and even my own?'

'All the elders," said he, "received their resurrection at the time our Lord was raised and with Him became the first fruits of those who slept; yet we ourselves shall be freshly arrayed along with you for the marriage of the Lamb, a great event to which we all are looking.'"

I find no reason why not to believe this testimony. It agrees with scripture.

No! It most certainly does NOT agree with Scripture! As I've already pointed out, Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:20 and 23 tells us that HE ALONE is the Firstfruits (SINGULAR).

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why did they not come out of the graves when the graves were opened? I can only guess that God chose to cause the grave-opening-earthquake at Jesus death because He wanted it that way. But no one could receive a resurrection body before Christ Himself.

Actually, it was to demonstrate that their resurrections were not immortal resurrections!

[Your closest friendnt]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I hope you're not being serious! "Hades?" "Hades" is NOT another name for "Satan!" He fears the Lake of Fire and Sulfur as anyone would in their right mind! HaSatan is NOT the "ruler of the realm of the dead!" No, Hades is a Greek god from their mythology! He doesn't exist, and he is not found in the Bible at all!

Shalom, Hello, bonjour kalemera @Retrobyter.

You must have mix up the posts because at no time did I say what you claim I said "that Hades is another name for Satan, no I never said that.

What I said about Hades is this found in

Revelation 6:8 NIV " 8. I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

You are right about, that there is a Ruler of the realm of the dead...and HaSatan is not the ruler of the realm of the dead... 

Jesus said that there is a God of the dead when he denied that the Lord God Almighty is the God of the dead...and this the scripture reference: 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But he was not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all of them were alive to him.”

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:39
Some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, You have spoken well!"

Romans 14:8
If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to God. Jesus purchased us from someone from the Lord of the inherited Captivity of death from Adam's disobedience...

Everyone was under the inherited death from Adam...

Jesus Christ set us free from the inherited death from Adam...

Paul spent all his life preaching about that...

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead..from the realm of the dead. Jesus Christ was never under the death Captivity of Adam because he was from God, from the Heavenly Father. 

Luke 1:35

New International Version
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BUT it is SINGULAR even when speaking of the PLURAL, SO I am not following WHY you insist that it is ONLY CHRIST being raised up. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

<Sigh.> The more I write, the more no one reads.

ONLY THE MESSIAH is the first-fruit! There were no others! Paul tells us that in 1 Corinthians 15:20 and 23. HE is the first-fruit (and I'm using words that suggest the singular that the word aparchee is)!

Furthermore, the passage in Matthew 27:50-53 tells us that these resurrections at the Messiah's death are NOT of the same caliber as that of the Messiah upon the first day of the week!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If that was the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, then WHY WERE THE GRAVES OPENED?

To demonstrate the power unleashed by the expiring of the Messiah!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHY WERE PEOPLE RESURRECTED?

Again, to demonstrate the power that the Messiah had to resurrect people!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHY WERE RESURRECTED PEOPLE SEEN? 

This is to ensure that this was WELL-known among the Jews! It was the FINAL confirmation that Yeeshuwa` was indeed the Messiah of God!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHY DIDN'T EVERYONE SEE THEM?  

Who said they didn't? People travel in certain circles and not everyone travels in the same circles of familiarity. Those who needed to see them saw them, but again, we're NOT told that they weren't seen by everyone in Jerusalem!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

536. aparché 
Strong's Concordance
aparché: the beginning of a sacrifice, i.e. the first fruit
Original Word: ἀπαρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aparché
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ar-khay')
Definition: the beginning of a sacrifice, the first fruit
Usage: the first-fruits, the earliest crop of the year, hence also met., for example, of the earliest converts in a district; there is evidence in favor of rendering in some passages merely by: sacrifice, gift.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and arché
Definition
the beginning of a sacrifice, i.e. the first fruit
NASB Translation
first convert (1), first fruits (6), first piece (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 536: ἀπαρχή

ἀπαρχή, ἀπαρχῆς, ἡ (from ἀπάρχομαι:
a. to offer firstlings or first-fruits;

b. to take away the first-fruits; cf. ἀπό in ἀποδεκατόω), in the Sept. generally equivalent to רֵאשִׁית; the first-fruits of the productions of the earth (both those in a natural state and those prepared for use by hand), which were offered to God; cf. Winers RWB under the word Erstlinge (BB. DD. under the word First-fruits): ἡ ἀπαρχή namely, τοῦ φυράματος, the first portion of the dough, from which sacred loaves were to be prepared (Numbers 15:19-21), Romans 11:16. Hence, in a transferred use, employed a. of persons consecrated to God, leading the rest in time: ἀπαρχή τῆς Ἀχαΐας the first person in Achaia to enroll himself as a Christian, 1 Corinthians 16:15; with εἰς Χριστόν added, Romans 16:5; with a reference to the moral creation effected by Christianity all the Christians of that age are called ἀπαρχή τίς (a kind of first-fruits) τῶν τοῦ Θεοῦ κτισμάτων, James 1:18 (see Huther at the passage) (noteworthy is εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ Θεός ἀπαρχήν etc. as first-fruits] 2 Thessalonians 2:13 L Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading; Christ is called ἀπαρχή τῶν κεκοιμημένων as the first one recalled to life of them that have fallen asleep, 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23 (here the phrase seems also to signify that by his case the future resurrection of Christians is guaranteed; because the first-fruits forerun and are, as it were, a pledge and promise of the rest of the harvest).

b. of persons superior in excellence to others of the same class: so in Revelation 14:4 of a certain class of Christians sacred and dear to God and Christ beyond all others (Schol. ad Euripides, Or. 96 ἀπαρχή ἐλέγετο οὐ μόνον πρῶτον τῇ τάξει, ἀλλά καί τό πρῶτον τῇ τιμή).

c. οἱ ἔχοντες τήν ἀπαρχήν τοῦ πνεύματος who have the first-fruits (of future blessings) in the Spirit (τοῦ πνεύματος is genitive of apposition), Romans 8:23; cf. what Winer § 50, 8 a. says in opposition to those (e. g. Meyer, but see Weiss in edition 6) who take τοῦ πνεύματος as a partitive genitive, so that οἱ ἔχοντες τήν ἀπαρχήν τοῦ πνεύματος are distinguished from the great multitude who will receive the Spirit subsequently. (In Greek writings from (Sophocles) Herodotus down.)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firstfruits.
From a compound of apo and archomai; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. The (Jewish) first-fruit (figuratively) -- first-fruits.

 to offer firstlings or first-fruits;


I'm saying it is coming across LIKE IT CAN ONLY MEAN CHRIST, but as you can see that just isn't so. 

Not at all. See, these definitions are written by those who don't understand the wave offering. The firstfruit (again written to reflect its nature of being singular) was the ONE fruit that was used for the wave offering! This was harvested BEFORE the general harvest of that fruit kind.

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Romans 8:23 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ πνεύματος
NAS: having the first fruits of the Spirit,
KJV: which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
INT: ourselves the first-fruit of the Spirit

Romans 11:16 N-NFS
GRK: δὲ ἡ ἀπαρχὴ ἁγία καὶ
NAS: If the first piece [of dough] is holy,
KJV: if the firstfruit [be] holy,
INT: moreover the first-fruit [be] holy also

Romans 16:5 N-NFS
GRK: ὅς ἐστιν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀσίας
NAS: who is the first convert to Christ
KJV: who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto
INT: who is a first-fruit of Achaia

1 Corinthians 15:20 N-NFS
GRK: ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων
NAS: from the dead, the first fruits of those
KJV: [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
INT: from among [the] dead first-fruit of those fallen asleep

1 Corinthians 15:23 N-NFS
GRK: ἰδίῳ τάγματι ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα
NAS: Christ the first fruits, after
KJV: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
INT: own order [the] first-fruit Christ then

1 Corinthians 16:15 N-NFS
GRK: ὅτι ἐστὶν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀχαίας
NAS: of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia,
KJV: it is the firstfruits of Achaia,
INT: that it is first-fruit of Achaia

James 1:18 N-AFS
GRK: εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἀπαρχήν τινα τῶν
NAS: that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
KJV: a kind of firstfruits of his
INT: to be us first-fruits a sort of

Revelation 14:4 N-NFS
GRK: τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ
NAS: men as first fruits to God
KJV: among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God
INT: the men [as] firstfruits to God

Strong's Greek 536
8 Occurrences

Not all of these verses are about the wave offering. Only those used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23 are about Yeeshuwa` being the first-fruit, singular.

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

the first-fruits of the productions of the earth 

the first portion 

So YES, Jesus was the FIRST of the Harvest but the HARVEST of them who slept had to have taken place 

Nope. They did not. There was no "HARVEST" in the First Century at Yeeshuwa`s death or His resurrection! Those who were resurrected when Yeeshuwa` died were effectively caught in His blast radius! When He sent His breath away and died, the huge amount of His life-force, which He called "virtue," was given off at once! Those "caught in its wake," were brought back to life!

That's why I brought up the account of the woman with an issue of blood touching the tsit-tsit (fringe) of His talit (outer-garment). She was immediately healed, and He was aware of the "virtue" that went out of Him at that moment!

We also read about the death of Eliyshah (Elisha) and when another was hurriedly let down into His tomb, and when that dead person touched the bones of Eliyshah, he came back to life! See, when Eliyahuw (Elijah) was taken away, Eliyshah asked for a double portion of his spirit. All of Eliyahuw's miracles were performed twice by Eliyshah, except for the resurrection they each performed while alive. So, Eliyshah had enough of Eliyahuw's power left to raise one more person to life posthumously!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

OR ELSE He would NOT have been the first fruits OF THEM THAT SLEPT but of all that were ever saved

This is nonsense, of course. Yeeshuwa` was the first-fruit of ALL THOSE WHO HAVE EVER SLEPT - ALL of the Dead! There is no distinction of "all that were ever saved." To be "saved" is to be "delivered" or "rescued!" This only happens when one is rescued by the Messiah, which won't happen until the Messiah returns!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I understand the DISTINCTION may not sit well, but THAT doesn't change what is written.  OUR UNDERSTANDING is to come FROM what is written, not the other way around.  

But, one must first UNDERSTAND what is written in order for one's understanding to come from what is written!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHEN WERE THE GRAVES OPENED?  

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,

to proclaim liberty to the captives, 

and the opening of the prison to them that are bound 

Yes, and this was quoted by Yeeshuwa` when He read from Yesha`yahuw's (Isaiah's) scroll in the synagogue!

Luke 4:16-21 (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

 

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 (DIDN'T HE LEAD THE CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE?)

NO! He did NOT! That's not what Ephesians 4:8 is about, nor is it what David was talking about in Psalm 68:1-18! He was talking about the captives of Egypt being led captive by YHWH God through Moses out of Egypt in the Exodus!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHEN WAS THE LAST DAY OF THE OLD COVENANT, OF THE LORD WALKING ON EARTH AS THE SON OF MAN IN THE FLESH?  

WHAT WAS HIS HE SUPPOSED TO DO?  

John 6:37-40

37  All that gives Me the Father to Me will come and the coming to Me, no not shall I cast out

38  For I have come down from heaven not that I should do the will of Me but the will of the {One} having sent Me

39  This now is the will of the {One} having sent Me that all that He has given Me none I should lose of it, but will raise up it in the last day

40  This for is the will of the Father of Me that everyone beholding the Son and believing in Him should have life eternal and will raise up him I in the last day

This is the LAST DAY of the AGE, not His own "last day!" Nor is it the "last day" of the "Old Covenant!" It's the same "last day" that Martha understood in her discussion with Yeeshuwa` after Eleazar ("Lazarus") had died!

John 11:21-27 (KJV)

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her,

"Thy brother shall rise again." 

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world."

 

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 6:47-50

47  Truly truly I say to you the believing has life eternal

48  I am the bread of life

49  The fathers of You ate in the wilderness the manna and died

50  This is the bread from heaven coming down that anyone of it may eat and not die

WHY IS THERE NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS?  

John 6:53

53  Said therefore to them Jesus

Truly truly I say to you if NOT you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man and shall have drunk of Him the blood

NOT you have life in yourselves. 

Because that is how YHWH God the Father has it planned. He doesn't always share the "why" He is doing it, but one must accept that it is how HE planned it to happen!

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

JOhn 6:54

54  The eating of Me the flesh and drinking of Me the blood has life eternal and I will raise up him in the last day

The LAST DAY we have LIFE IN THE NATURAL BODY

is WHEN we are resurrected to LIFE IN THE SPIRIT BODY, to go live with the LIVING FATHER.  

Again, this if faulty logic and nonsense to boot! Nope. That is NOT the "last day" that Yeeshuwa` is talking about! He is referring to the LAST DAY of this AGE, not of a person's "natural body!" But, I can see that there's no driving this out of you. You are BOUND and DETERMINED to make a fool of yourself. So be it.

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 6:55-58

55  The for flesh of Me TRUE is food and the blood of Me TRUE is drink

56 The eating of Me the flesh and drinking of Me the blood in Me abides and I in him

57  As sent Me the living Father and I live because of the Father also the feeding on Me he also will live because of Me

58  This is the bread from heaven having come down


not as ate the fathers and died.  


The eating this bread will live to the age.  


The living do NOT resurrect out from the dead.  

Hmmph! Now you're just contradicting Scripture! Go back to the Book and read to learn from it, not to find your opinions written there.

[Your closest friendnt]

Genesis 15:15

¹⁵ And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Genesis 35:28 

28 Now the days of Isaac were one hundred and eighty years. 29 So Isaac breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people, being old and full of days. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him. 

Genesis 35:19 “And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem. 

Genesis 35:6

“So Jacob came to Luz, which is in the land of Canaan, that is, Bethel, he and all the people that were with him.”

Genesis 35:8

“But Deborah Rebekah's nurse died, and she was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and the name of it was called Allonbachuth

Genesis 35:18

“And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.”

35:19 “And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.” 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BUT it is SINGULAR even when speaking of the PLURAL, SO I am not following WHY you insist that it is ONLY CHRIST being raised up. 

 

Jesus is the High Priest that presented the first fruits of the Harvest in the Heaven before the Heavenly Father.

He was also the Harvester..the same one who did the Harvest is also the one who made the offering of the first ones to be redeemed and be justified and sanctified in the blood of the Lamb...

Jesus was the Justifyier and the Sanctifyier he did not have the need to be justified and to be sanctified before the Heavenly Father because he came from the Father and he lived and died in full obedience to the Father...

Jesus offered to the Heavenly Father the first fruits not only of one produced of the Harvest, but he offered the first fruits of every produce he harvested.

Jesus presented to the Heavenly Father the first fruits of the various produce of the Harvest...

We understand that the first ones to be harvested by Jesus were Abraham and Issac and Jacob and all the household of Jacob who were with him..

 

 

[Cntrysner]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ONLY THE MESSIAH is the first-fruit! There were no others! Paul tells us that in 1 Corinthians 15:20 and 23. HE is the first-fruit (and I'm using words that suggest the singular that the word aparchee is)!

 

It is true that Christ is the Firstfruits which was represented in the wave offering of a sheaf of barley which contained many seeds. The firstfruit sheaf being singular foreshadowed the literal body of Christ which has many members.

Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. 
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The dead in Christ are alive unto God. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Cntrysner

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Not at all. See, these definitions are written by those who don't understand the wave offering. The firstfruit (again written to reflect its nature of being singular) was the ONE fruit that was used for the wave offering! This was harvested BEFORE the general harvest of that fruit kind.

AND THERE IT IS.   

If only the 'definitions' could be written by YOU and YOUR understanding....instead of his and his understanding...who wrote them 'better' from the other guys understanding...who gave BETTER understanding than the guy before him...

WHY do you think the first infiltrations were of the SCRIBES?? Do you think they ever quit??  Where do you think they would be working best??  I have a good idea. 

The ONLY PURE words are the WORDS OF GOD.  

THAT IS WHAT I KEEP TRYING TO GET YOU TO UNDERSTAND

                                   IS NOT OK WITH ME.  

You don't see it as a manipulation of the Word because you USE the definitions as THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH,  when I see that as being  BACKWARDS. 

You are using the WISDOM of man to DEFINE the words for the defining of what the WORDS OF GOD MEAN, instead of the PRECEPT on precept, precept on precept....leading of the Holy Spirit for the Spirit of the Truth.  

YOU KEEP missing the ever important fact that those who PERFECTLY KNEW ALL THE DEFINITIONS of the words,

      MISSED THE MESSIAH STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM

WHY you would KEEP USING THAT OLD AND PROVEN AND 'PUT AWAY' METHOD,  instead of the NEW ONE brought in by our Lord and Saviour, I will never understand.  

At least NOW, I can safely say WE BOTH possess A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING of where we are coming from and WHY we do not see eye to eye very often.  

I have been watching the 'definitions' slowly 'change' while more and more  'opinions' or 'meanings' are added,  and I see how they are being used to 'bolster' certain beliefs.  JUST LIKE GOD must have known it would, hence all the warnings.  

 

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Nope. They did not. There was no "HARVEST" in the First Century at Yeeshuwa`s death or His resurrection!

So when HE SAID, 

17  And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Eph 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Again, this if faulty logic and nonsense to boot! Nope. That is NOT the "last day" that Yeeshuwa` is talking about! He is referring to the LAST DAY of this AGE, not of a person's "natural body!" But, I can see that there's no driving this out of you. You are BOUND and DETERMINED to make a fool of yourself. So be it.

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

and your reply will be 'I didn't say that'

thank you for your time.  I'll not be reading another word from you.