Interesting passage gives insights into Predestination and Foreknowledge

[Alive]

BTW--this is that word 'draw'.

1670. ἕλκω helkō; a prim. vb.; to drag; draw; haul: — drag(1), dragged(2), draw(1), draws(1), drew(1), haul(1), hauled(1).

[Alive]

ANd a few verses later, He sums up that section.

⁶⁵ And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

[enoob57]

The problem with calvinism is calvinism... the tenants of TULIP are a build upon one another and the T stands for total depravity which according to calvinist is corpse like dead... you cannot even respond to God's Word unless God regenerates you first. God has to save you first before you can respond to God's truth... My Question is doesn't God know His Own program

Genesis 4:4 (KJV)

[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

why would God even be talking to Cain if Cain couldn't respond to God's truth?

[Alive]

Just now, Heaven_Bound said:

Even us Believers Invite:

Matthew 22:9
Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.'

You can do better than that.

That is not what the scriptures say. That is not what Jesus said in John 6:44 and 6:65

[Alive]

One of the issues is that far too many that debate these issues don't understand what Cal and Arm actually believed and wrote, so often the discussions are filled with fallacies.

[Alive]

^{Jer 13:23} If the Ethiopian shall change his skin, or the leopardess her spots, then shall ye be able to do good, having learnt evil.

[Alive]

Jer. 17:9 (NAS20S)   “The heart is more deceitful than all else   And is desperately sick;   Who can understand it?

Mark 7:21 (NAS20S) “For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, acts of sexual immorality, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, ²² deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior,   envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. ²³ “All these evil things come from within and defile the person.”

John 3:19 (NAS20S) “And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

Rom. 3:10 (NAS20S) as it is written:   “ THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE;

¹¹  THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,   THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;

¹²  THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME CORRUPT;   THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD,   THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

Rom. 5:6 (NAS20S)   For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Eph. 2:1 (NAS20S)   And you were dead in your offenses and sins,

Eph. 2:3 (NAS20S) Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

1Cor. 2:14 (NAS20S)   But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 6:16 (NAS20S) Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? ¹⁷ But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that   form of teaching to which you were entrusted, ¹⁸ and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness. ¹⁹ I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented the parts of your body as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your body’s parts as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Rom. 6:20 (NAS20S)   For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness.

_____________________________

Acts 13:48 (NAS20S)   When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

Eph. 1:4 (NAS20S) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

 

2Tim. 1:9 (NAS20S) who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

 

1Pet. 1:3 (NAS20S)    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

John 6:44 (NAS20S) “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. ⁴⁵ “It is written in the Prophets: ‘ AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

 

Rom. 8:29 (NAS20S) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; ³⁰ and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

Eph. 1:5 (NAS20S) He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

 

Eph. 1:11 (NAS20S) In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,

 

John 1:12 (NAS20S) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, ¹³ who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

[angels4u]

35 minutes ago, Alive said:

I thought it might be interesting to some to read what Calvin himself wrote in his commentary on John 6:44.

Unless the Father draw him. To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist, in order to carry out the metaphor in the apposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn,¹⁵¹ as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey him.

45. It is written in the Prophets. Christ confirms by the testimony of Isaiah what he said, that no man can come to him, unless he be drawn by the Father. He uses the word prophets in the plural number, because all their prophecies had been collected into one volume, so that all the prophets might justly be accounted one book. The passage which is here quoted is to be found in Isaiah 54:13, where, speaking of the restoration of the Church, he promises to her, sons taught by the instruction of God. Hence it may easily be inferred, that the Church cannot be restored in any other way than by God undertaking the office of a Teacher, and bringing believers to himself. The way of teaching, of which the prophet speaks, does not consist merely in the external voice, but likewise in the secret operation of the Holy Spirit. In short, this teaching of God is the inward illumination of the heart.

And they shall be all taught by God. As to the word all, it must be limited to the elect, who alone are the true children of the Church. Now it is not difficult to see in what manner Christ applies this prediction to the present subject. Isaiah shows that then only is the Church truly edified, when she has her children taught by God. Christ, therefore, justly concludes that men have not eyes to behold the light of life, until God has opened them. But at the same time, he fastens on the general phrase, all; because he argues from it, that all who are taught by God are effectually drawn, so as to come; and to this relates what he immediately adds,

Whosoever therefore hath heard my Father. The amount of what is said is, that all who do not believe are reprobate and doomed to destruction; because all the sons of the Church and heirs of life are made by God to be his obedient disciples. Hence it follows, that there is not one of all the elect of God who shall not be a partaker of faith in Christ.¹⁵² Again, as Christ formerly affirmed that men are not fitted for believing, until they have been drawn, so he now declares that the grace of Christ, by which they are drawn, is efficacious, so that they necessarily believe.

These two clauses utterly overturn the whole power of free will, of which the Papists dream. For if it be only when the Father has drawn us that we begin to come to Christ, there is not in us any commencement of faith, or any preparation for it. On the other hand, if all come whom the Father hath taught, He gives to them not only the choice of believing, but faith itself. When, therefore, we willingly yield to the guidance of the Spirit, this is a part, and, as it were, a sealing of grace; because God would not draw us, if He were only to stretch out his hand, and leave our will in a state of suspense. But in strict propriety of language He is said to draw us, when He extends the power of his Spirit to the full effect of faith. They are said to hear God, who willingly assent to God speaking to them within, because the Holy Spirit reigns in their hearts.

Why are we talking predestination all over again?

I believe this is not the topic of the thread?

[Alive]

John 1:13 (NAS20S) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

[B-B]

re•gen•er•a•tion

 (rɪˌdʒɛn əˈreɪ ʃən)

n.

1. the act of regenerating or the state of being regenerated.

2. the regrowth of a lost or injured part of the body.

3. spiritual rebirth; religious revival.