Different peoples, Different covenants, Different deaths, will NEVER fit into an 'either/or' explanation

[DeighAnn]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:39 AM, AdHoc said:

My esteemed sister, in every point you make, you come to a conclusion that varies from scripture. Please reconsider. I'll let scripture tell you when David will rise. It is after the last Christian has been taken from the Gentiles. Acts 15:13-16 says;

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 AFTER THIS I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

David is only resurrected when Israel is restored to One Nation in their Land. Jeremiah 30;

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

This tells us when David will rise?

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

AND CHRIST came and was crucified and rose and WE ARE NOW BUILDING UP that tabernacle of David

 

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.




You also said "David is only resurrected when Israel is restored to One Nation in their Land. Jeremiah 30;", but IS THAT WHAT IS WRITTEN??
 

Jeremiah 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jeremiah 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jeremiah 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Jeremiah 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


Jeremiah 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him

IN WHAT DAY WILL IT COME TO PASS?  I BELIEVE it is the Lords Day being spoken of, NOT DAVIDS DAY.  
 

Jeremiah 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

I BELIEVE THIS 'DAVID', is the Lord and Saviour Himself, as in Davids SEED who was promised to sit upon Davids throne, THE LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS, WHOM GOD RAISED UP,  WHO WILL BE SERVED IN THAT DAY,

and is not speaking of David "who will 'rise from the dead' that day".  I can see why you see this though.  I just don't believe it fits with the precept on precept of the whole chapter, for me anyhow.  

Also, this, for me, goes back to GOD who raised up Christ,  and Christ who raises us as it was Christ who opened the graves and raised up the dead.  
 

Jeremiah 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Jeremiah 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.

Jeremiah 30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.

Jeremiah 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.

Jeremiah 30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

Jeremiah 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.

Jeremiah 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

Jeremiah 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

Jeremiah 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.

Jeremiah 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

Jeremiah 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Jeremiah 30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.

Jeremiah 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

[AdHoc]

On 5/13/2022 at 4:29 PM, Cntrysner said:

No confusion for the scripture says,

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those that died believing in Christ are those that come with Christ at His return, they did not wait in the ground for His return.

The following scripture does not say those that died in Christ rise when he returns. It clarifies that those dead in Christ rise first with no reference to when the dead in Christ rise but that they will rise first, then those alive and remain will join them in the clouds at His return.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

You are out of order.

The colon represents a strong disjunctive pause from what is previously said in a sentence and brings attention to the main point that was earlier stated.

The main point is -   1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

It is clear that the dead in Christ rise first and they will descend with Christ at His return.

You did not take care of the word "TOGETHER".

You also did not deal with verse 14 according to the grammar.
"Them ALSO ... ". This establishes a resurrection, not only of Christ, but the saints also. But "WHICH SLEEP" gives their present condition as Paul wrote this. For your thesis to be correct it would have to read; "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which HAVE RISEN by Christ will God bring with Him". But it does not. It has the sleeper still sleeping.

Verse 14 affirms that when Christ comes the saints will be with Him. The hearer will immediately ask; "how is that possible since they languish in Hades and the graves?" Paul's answer is; "The dead RISE FIRST and join the living on the surface of the earth. Then TOGETHER, the resurrected and the Living are caught away to the clouds."

[AdHoc]

On 5/13/2022 at 4:34 PM, DeighAnn said:

I am thinking you will need to discuss this with God, as what is written doesn't seem to be getting through.  We sow NOT that which will be, but a SEED,  and God gives it a body and every seed has a body.  WHY you want death and decomp and decay and dust from the earth to be resurrected, I will never understand.  

AGAIN, take a SEED from a PLANT,  bury it,  and wait, and  a new plant will grow, but take a DEAD PLANT, bury it, and you will wait forever for a new plant to grow. 

I will only answer this as what you passed as a problem and then answered after that, I did not address.

What I did address was that Christ still had His wounds. What I did address was that Christ's Body did not see corruption. What I did address is that if we examine 1st Corinthians 15, we will find the previous body made new. But I will start with this one simple argument - one that you refuse to enter into discussion about. In Romans 6:5 and Philippians 3:21 is says severally;

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

It is evident from the plain language that our resurrection is LIKE that of Christ.

- When Christ was raised, was it with a NEW BODY? Or was it that Body which hung on the cross? If you say, it was a new body, then my question is how did it get wounds consistent with crucifixion? Did some greater power than God kill Christ a second time?

- How can one have his "vile body CHANGED" if he has received a new body. Why then the change, and why change the old if a new one is to be given?

But now let us examine 1st Corinthians 15. The question is posed; "with what body do they come". The Holy Spirit designates anybody who does not know, or varies in understanding to what follows, as a FOOL

- Verse 36 says that resurrection body comes from "THAT WHICH IS SOWN". It is true that the seed dies and is broken up but that which comes out IS OF THE SEED

- Verse 42-44 says "IT" is sown and "IT" (the same thing) is raised ....

- The word "spiritual" can mean one of two things. (i) A thing is spirit when its substance is spirit - like God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24). But our Lord specifically says that His resurrection body is NOT Spirit in Luke 24:39. (ii) A thing is spiritual when it has its origin in the Holy Spirit. A perfect example of this is the Church. the Church is made of physical BODIES (1st Cor.6:15), but it is a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5) because it has its ORIGIN in the holy Spirit.

In view of these two points, the bodies we have in resurrection are NOT spirit substance, BUT are "spiritual" because they have their source by the Holy Spirit

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Then, even those who live are CHANGED. That is, the old is transformed, or goes through METAMORPHOSIS. 1st Corinthians continues;

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The LIVING do not lose their bodies. They keep them but they are changed. The change is both subtle and profound. The body we received from Adam is "of all nations ONE BLOOD" (Act.17:26). The life is in the blood. And it is this life, that which Adam transmitted by blood, that is unfit for the Kingdom. So Christ's Body is "FLESH AND BLOOD by birth (Heb.2:14), but in resurrection it is "FLESH AND BONE" (Lk.24:39). So also the making of Eve is one of "FLESH AND BONE" (GEN.2:23) and the Church too is "FLESH OF HIS FLESH AND BONE OF HIS BONE" (Eph.5:30). The fallen Adamic blood with its LIFE, though it sustains a man, is unfit for the Kingdom. For that we need the LIFE of Christ - eternal life.

There is more, but I believe that my point is made. In death we occupy a grave and rot to the elements. In resurrection God takes these same elements and fashions it into a spiritual body by His Spirit, and in to an incorruptible body because the Spirit is incorruptible, and in to an immortal body because it possesses God's eternal life.

This doctrine that a man receives an new and spirit body at death is a MYTH!

[Alive]

Life is in the blood.

I find it interesting carrying forward all of what scripture says about blood and juxtaposed against the fact that our new bodies will be flesh and bone and that rather than blood as life, it will be Christ Life as the source. Sons…after kind. They will certwinly be different with capabilities beyond imagining. Pass through walls. Able to exist in more than one realm? Travel faster than light?

Help fill the universe? The Lord expanded the Land as it was needed for Israel. Many Nations. That was stopped due to Israel’ harlotry, but did Christ restore this? Multiply and subdue.

Lots of possibilities.

[AdHoc]

On 5/13/2022 at 6:31 PM, DeighAnn said:

What is being said?  Of course, again, must back up so we can SEE by following PRECEPT ON PRECEPT verse by verse.....to MAKE SURE we are not changing what is written to FIT US, but finding Him through what is written.  

 

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,


NEITHER wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

DAVIDS flesh NATURAL body is still in the grave to this day.  It is decomposing and going back to dust.  EVERY SINGLE natural body that has ever been is STILL IN THE grave or ashes or dust to this day.  BUT DAVIDS SPIRITUAL BODY HAS GONE ON TO BE WITH THE LORD IN HEAVEN AND WILL RETURN WHEN CHRIST DOES.  

NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER RISE AS CHRIST DID.  NO ONE.  

THERE IS ONLY ONE FLESH natural BODY THAT HAS EVER RISEN from the dead OR EVER WILL and that is our LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRISTS.

That is the only BODY made from the dust of the ground that will ever RISE FROM THE DUST.  ALL THE REST OF US will rise in OUR SPIRITUAL BODIES, LEAVING OUR NATURAL BODIES TO GO BACK TO DUST. 

WE have 2 bodies.  ONE will see corruption, the other will rise and RECEIVE ETERNAL liFe or rise and find itself in the LOF,  the place we are to fear because both the body and soul can be killed there, but only by GOD.  

 

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

WHERE WILL HIS KINGDOM BE?  ON EARTH

Acts 2:31 He seeing this BEFORE spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

DAVID SPOKE THIS BEFORE HE DIED, proving himself a prophet, NOT PROVING HE HASN'T YET ASCENDED, as you say it says.

Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

YOU stated

v. 36 affirms that Christ will first subdue enemies while HE (Jesus) sits at the right hand of God and DAVID is NOT ascended.

HOW DOES THIS AFFIRM THAT DAVID IS NOT YET ASCENDED?  AND JESUS doesn't make His enemies his footstool, THE LORD does that.  

 

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on My right hand,

Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


1 Corinthians 15:27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
 

You concluded that which I underlined. The trouble is, David did not say this. Peter did. It was a man living a thousand years after David who said that David's body was still there in Jerusalem, and that David was still in Hades, and that David had no ascended yet.

[Cntrysner]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You did not take care of the word "TOGETHER".

God will bring those who sleep with Christ when he returns from the Father's right hand then those caught up will be together with them in the clouds.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You also did not deal with verse 14 according to the grammar.
"Them ALSO ... ". This establishes a resurrection, not only of Christ, but the saints also. But "WHICH SLEEP" gives their present condition as Paul wrote this. For your thesis to be correct it would have to read; "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which HAVE RISEN by Christ will God bring with Him". But it does not. It has the sleeper still sleeping.

Sleep refers to their body being dead in the ground as far as they understood. Notice there is no mention of resurrection of the flesh.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him. 
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 

Rose refers to the ascended Christ and those that died in Christ descend with Him in the clouds when He returns. Notice the alive remained which confirms those that sleep in Christ ascended leaving their corpses behind and receive a spirit body.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Verse 14 affirms that when Christ comes the saints will be with Him. The hearer will immediately ask; "how is that possible since they languish in Hades and the graves?" Paul's answer is; "The dead RISE FIRST and join the living on the surface of the earth. Then TOGETHER, the resurrected and the Living are caught away to the clouds."

Those that believe in Christ death has no hold yet you believe in death inorder to be resurrected in the flesh.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 

It appears you believe that the resurrected Jesus of the flesh is your prototype for a earthly resurrected body of flesh without understanding Christ's body was sinless and did not see decay thus no need of a reconstruted body.

[AdHoc]

17 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

God will bring those who sleep with Christ when he returns from the Father's right hand then those caught up will be together with them in the clouds.

 

Sleep refers to their body being dead in the ground as far as they understood. Notice there is no mention of resurrection of the flesh.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him. 
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 

Rose refers to the ascended Christ and those that died in Christ descend with Him in the clouds when He returns. Notice the alive remained which confirms those that sleep in Christ ascended leaving their corpses behind and receive a spirit body.

Those that believe in Christ death has no hold yet you believe in death inorder to be resurrected in the flesh.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 

It appears you believe that the resurrected Jesus of the flesh is your prototype for a earthly resurrected body of flesh without understanding Christ's body was sinless and did not see decay thus no need of a reconstruted body.

I'll post it again for you to read an apply the grammar.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Th 4:16–17)

By the rules of grammar, this is what will happen.
1. Jesus must first descend (v.16). This He has not yet done.
2. THEN, once he has descended a shout and trump sound
3. THEN, the DEAD in Christ will RISE (direction from below to a higher point)
4. THEN, the LIVING in Christ, shall be caught away (lit. Gk.) TOGETHER with those who have just RISEN

Here are some observations:
1. The dead in Christ will only rise from Hades to the surface of the earth when Christ comes, when an archangel shouts, and when His trumpet blows. This has not yet happened

2. Scripture speaks of those ALIVE. But then adds "and remain". This is so scripture is 100% correct. There are some who are alive but have been removed, like Elijah. The are alive BUT DO NOT REMAIN.

3. The resurrected DEAD only go the clouds AFTER they RISE. The resurrected DEAD only go to the clouds TOGETHER with the living.

4. They "MEET" the Lord in the air. If the dead had already ascended why would they have to meet the Lord?

And YES! I do believe that Jesus is a prototype. Consider Colossians 1:17-18;

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1. The word "FIRST-born" implies many after Him
2. The word "preeminence" declares that man will do the same but he is the first
3. Romans 6:5 says; "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."
4. Philippians 3:21 says; "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You also did not deal with verse 14 according to the grammar.
"Them ALSO ... ". This establishes a resurrection, not only of Christ, but the saints also. But "WHICH SLEEP" gives their present condition as Paul wrote this. For your thesis to be correct it would have to read; "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which HAVE RISEN by Christ will God bring with Him". But it does not. It has the sleeper still sleeping.

The Lord CLEARED that up for you HERE

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

FOR YOUR THEORY TO BE TRUTH THIS WOULD NEED TO READD

...how say some among you that there WILL BE NO FUTURE RESURRECTION of the dead?  

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen

and this would NEED TO BE WRITTEN "if there be no FUTURE RESURRECTION of the dead because IT CLEARLY is written in the PRESENT TENSE.

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

IF THE DEAD DIDN'T RISE THEN CHRIST WOULD NOT BE RAISED EITHER.  IT IS ALL PRESENT TENSE, THE 'FUTURE TENSE' IS ADDED BY MAN.  

It doesn't say 'IF SO BE THAT THE DEAD WILL NOT BE RISING IN THE FUTURE'


 

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:


AND this would need to be read IN A FUTURE TENSE ALSO.  Nothing is written in a future tense UNTIL  Paul speaks to the 'mystery' of what will happen to those ON THE LAST DAY who are STILL ALIVE when Christ returns.  Now MANY go to the MYSTERY and bring it forth to make it about EVERYDAY when it is given only for the one day.  

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

FIRSTFRUITS OF WHOM?  THEM THAT SLEPT.  

who was SLEEPING when Christ 'descended' after His death?  Them that slept were those ALREADY DEAD.

Is Christ ONLY the firstfruits of THOSE WHO DIED BEFORE HE DID

OR IS HE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT ALONG WITH ALL WHO WOULD AS

JESUS makes it so simple, so simple you and I can't even begin to question ANYTHING about our 'state', be it sleep/asleep/dead


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?




HERE is how COMFORTABLE I PERSONALLY AM with saying WE, who have received the gift of salvation DON'T SLEEP/DIE...  

When STANDING before The Lord and HE ASKS ME

'Why did you tell EVERYONE "we would NEVER DIE" nor be 'sleeping/dead/waiting for our flesh to resurrect at MY return'

I am going to SAY

It is written 'whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die'

AND that is what I believed.

And when The Lord asks me 'WHY did you tell EVERYONE "We will be raised in our spiritual body"  I am going to say 

It is written '

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

so I NEVER AGAIN questioned if I would ever DIE or be without a body

and furthermore

It is written

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


THEN when the Lord asks me 'Why did you tell EVERYONE you would NOT ever be amongst 'the DEAD', awaiting the Lords return,  but would GO TO BE WHERE HE WAS upon the death of the flesh body

I will reply to the Lord

IT IS WRITTEN

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive YOU unto MYSELF ; that where I am, there YE may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

 

AND WHEN the Lord asks me 'WHY did you tell ADHOC "I was speaking of GOING to heaven and not waiting until Christ returns to the earth"

I will AGAIN say 'IT IS WRITTEN

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.



And just as importantly IT IS WRITTEN

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; thatthey may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.



WHERE do I believe HE IS?  IN heaven with the FATHER.  Where do I believe I will go to BEHOLD HIS GLORY?  To heaven.  I believe in the gift of Salvation.  I believe that being BORN AGAIN changes us.  I believe that OUR eternal LIFE BEGINS at that point. I believe only LIFE follows us and death LOSES any power over us, just as DEATH had no power over Christ. I believe for Jesus to 'rise from the dead' that 'the dead' must also rise.  I believe that 'this' is just a testing ground.  I believe GOD wants to know WHO WILL TEACH HIS WORDS, and NOT their own.  

As for

1 Thessalonians 4:14
If for we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God, those having fallen asleep through Jesus, will bring with Him

 599. apothnéskó ►
Strong's Concordance
apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.
HELPS Word-studies
599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

2837. koimaó from NG2749 ►
Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death

 71. agó ►
Strong's Concordance
agó: to lead, bring, carry
Original Word: ἄγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agó
Phonetic Spelling: (ag'-o)
Definition: to lead, bring, carry
Usage: I lead, lead away, bring (a person, or animal), guide, spend a day, go.

The DIRECTIONS we are given are clear and simple.  No grammar problem for me.  


Why did Jesus weep?   We know it wasn't for Lazarus. THEY JUST DIDN'T  GET IT.   SO very alike in this day are the 'Christians' like the 'Jews' of their day, got all the words, got all the grammar, got all the definitions...but can't find truth.

 

John 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

John 11:34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

John 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

John 11:37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

John 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in Himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?


John 11:33
Jesus therefore when He saw her weeping and the having come with her Jews weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled Himself

 1690. embrimaomai ►
Strong's Concordance
embrimaomai: to be moved with anger, to admonish sternly
Original Word: ἐμβριμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: embrimaomai
Phonetic Spelling: (em-brim-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to be moved with anger, to admonish sternly

Usage: I snort (with the notion of coercion springing out of displeasure, anger, indignation, antagonism), express indignant displeasure with some one; I charge sternly.

HELPS Word-studies

1690 embrimáomai (from 1722 /en, "engaged in" and brimaomai, "to snort") – properly, snort like an angry horse; (literally) "snort (roar) with rage" (BAGD) which expresses strong indignation, i.e. deep feeling that is moved to sternly admonish (A-S).

 

 5015. tarassó ►
Strong's Concordance
tarassó: to stir up, to trouble
Original Word: ταράσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tarassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tar-as'-so)
Definition: to stir up, to trouble
Usage: I disturb, agitate, stir up, trouble.
HELPS Word-studies
5015 tarássō – properly, put in motion (to agitate back-and-forth, shake to-and-fro); (figuratively) to set in motion what needs to remain still (at ease); to "trouble" ("agitate"), causing inner perplexity (emotional agitation) from getting too stirred up inside ("upset").

[5015 (tarássō) translates 46 Hebrew words in the LXX (Abbott-Smith), showing the enormous connotation power of OT Hebrew vocabulary.]


 

2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2 Corinthians 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinth 2:15  Greek
For of Christ a sweet perfume we are to God in those being saved and in those perishing

 4982. sózó ►
Strong's Concordance
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]

622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

16  to one indeed an odor from death to death, to one now, a fragrance from life to life.  And for these things who [is] sufficient?
 

life to life - NO DEATH for those BORN AGAIN.



2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3339. metamorphoó ►
Strong's Concordance
metamorphoó: to transform
Original Word: μεταμορφόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metamorphoó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-am-or-fo'-o)
Definition: to transform
Usage: I transform, transfigure.
HELPS Word-studies
3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445 /morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.

[3339 (metamorphóō) is the root of the English terms "metamorphosis" and "metamorphize."]


 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Verse 14 affirms that when Christ comes the saints will be with Him. The hearer will immediately ask; "how is that possible since they languish in Hades and the graves?" Paul's answer is; "The dead RISE FIRST and join the living on the surface of the earth. Then TOGETHER, the resurrected and the Living are caught away to the clouds."

IF only there were a way to RECONCILE THOSE DEAD WITH those who WILL NEVER DIE.  

LOOK what you are asking me to believe

Those Christ ASSURES will NEVER DIE  are to be FOUND DEAD until they rise.  

It is THE DEAD who rise.  The DEAD who will stand in judgment 1000 years later.  THE DEAD those MADE ALIVE will rule and reign over.  THE DEAD who will see the glory of GOD and shall witness the ALIVE AND REMAINING being changed and gathered TOGETHER WITH THOSE SAINTS WHO RETURN WITH CHRIST. Those who  receive IMMORTALITY


Those DEAD who rise STILL will be facing  'THE 2nd DEATH'.  HOPEFULLY they will during the 1000 years get THEIR NAMES written in the book of life so they don't end up in the lake of fire.  


THOSE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, THOSE WHO HAVE DIED WITH CHRIST AND BEEN RAISED WITH HIM, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, THOSE WHO WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE HEARD AND BELIEVED, THOSE WHO RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION

WILL NEVER EVER EVER AGAIN BE COUNTED AMONGST 

THE DEAD.  


CHRIST WAS THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM

WHO SLEPT.  WERE DEAD.  DIED UNDER THE LAW.  DIED BEFORE THE 'GOOD NEWS' WAS MADE AVAILABLE TO ALL. 

He went and preached to THOSE DEAD, 

and all who were WASHED CLEAN by the blood of the Lamb slain, had their graves opened, and ROSE with Him when He ascended, who WERE DEAD, BUT NOW LIVETH, 

 

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:



'THEM THAT SLEPT' are those who HEAR when He descends  


 he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:




EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN BORN AND BELIEVED IN THE SAVIOUR EVER SINCE THAT DAY

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me

SHALL NEVER DIE.   

 3756. ou, ouk, ouch ►

Strong's Concordance

ou, ouk, ouch: not, no

Original Word: οὐ
Part of Speech: Particle, Negative
Transliteration: ou, ouk, ouch
Phonetic Spelling: (oo)
Definition: not, no
Usage: no, not.

HELPS Word-studies

3756 ou – no ("not"). 3756 (ou) objectively negates a statement, "ruling it out as fact."

[3756 (ou) is written ouk before smooth breathings and oux before a rough breathing.]

 

3361. mé ►
Strong's Concordance
mé: not, that...not, lest (used for qualified negation)
Original Word: μή
Part of Speech: Particle, Negative
Transliteration: mé
Phonetic Spelling: (may)
Definition: not, that...not, lest (used for qualified negation)
Usage: not, lest.
HELPS Word-studies
3361 mḗ (a particle which functions as an adverb) – no, not. 3361 (mḗ) negates "subjectively," ruling out any implications ("suggestions") that could be involved with what should (could, would) apply.

3361 /mḗ ("not") negates the underlying idea (concept) of a statement, ruling out its possibilities, i.e. all that it suggests on a conceptual or hypothetical plane.

[3361 /mḗ ("not, no") then negates the implications (suggestions) that naturally spring from the negated statement.]

 

 

599. apothnéskó ►
Strong's Concordance
apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.
HELPS Word-studies
599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

Believest thou this?

Edited May 15, 2022 by DeighAnn
'THEM THAT SLEPT' are those who HEAR when He descends  

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Lord CLEARED that up for you HERE

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

FOR YOUR THEORY TO BE TRUTH THIS WOULD NEED TO READD

...how say some among you that there WILL BE NO FUTURE RESURRECTION of the dead?  

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen

and this would NEED TO BE WRITTEN "if there be no FUTURE RESURRECTION of the dead because IT CLEARLY is written in the PRESENT TENSE.

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

IF THE DEAD DIDN'T RISE THEN CHRIST WOULD NOT BE RAISED EITHER.  IT IS ALL PRESENT TENSE, THE 'FUTURE TENSE' IS ADDED BY MAN.  

It doesn't say 'IF SO BE THAT THE DEAD WILL NOT BE RISING IN THE FUTURE'


 

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:


AND this would need to be read IN A FUTURE TENSE ALSO.  Nothing is written in a future tense UNTIL  Paul speaks to the 'mystery' of what will happen to those ON THE LAST DAY who are STILL ALIVE when Christ returns.  Now MANY go to the MYSTERY and bring it forth to make it about EVERYDAY when it is given only for the one day.  

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

FIRSTFRUITS OF WHOM?  THEM THAT SLEPT.  

who was SLEEPING when Christ 'descended' after His death?  Them that slept were those ALREADY DEAD.

Is Christ ONLY the firstfruits of THOSE WHO DIED BEFORE HE DID

OR IS HE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT ALONG WITH ALL WHO WOULD AS

JESUS makes it so simple, so simple you and I can't even begin to question ANYTHING about our 'state', be it sleep/asleep/dead


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?




HERE is how COMFORTABLE I PERSONALLY AM with saying WE, who have received the gift of salvation DON'T SLEEP/DIE...  

When STANDING before The Lord and HE ASKS ME

'Why did you tell EVERYONE "we would NEVER DIE" nor be 'sleeping/dead/waiting for our flesh to resurrect at MY return'

I am going to SAY

It is written 'whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die'

AND that is what I believed.

And when The Lord asks me 'WHY did you tell EVERYONE "We will be raised in our spiritual body"  I am going to say 

It is written '

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

so I NEVER AGAIN questioned if I would ever DIE or be without a body

and furthermore

It is written

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


THEN when the Lord asks me 'Why did you tell EVERYONE you would NOT ever be amongst 'the DEAD', awaiting the Lords return,  but would GO TO BE WHERE HE WAS upon the death of the flesh body

I will reply to the Lord

IT IS WRITTEN

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive YOU unto MYSELF ; that where I am, there YE may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

 

AND WHEN the Lord asks me 'WHY did you tell ADHOC "I was speaking of GOING to heaven and not waiting until Christ returns to the earth"

I will AGAIN say 'IT IS WRITTEN

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.



And just as importantly IT IS WRITTEN

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; thatthey may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.



WHERE do I believe HE IS?  IN heaven with the FATHER.  Where do I believe I will go to BEHOLD HIS GLORY?  To heaven.  I believe in the gift of Salvation.  I believe that being BORN AGAIN changes us.  I believe that OUR eternal LIFE BEGINS at that point. I believe only LIFE follows us and death LOSES any power over us, just as DEATH had no power over Christ. I believe for Jesus to 'rise from the dead' that 'the dead' must also rise.  I believe that 'this' is just a testing ground.  I believe GOD wants to know WHO WILL TEACH HIS WORDS, and NOT their own.  

As for

1 Thessalonians 4:14
If for we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God, those having fallen asleep through Jesus, will bring with Him

 599. apothnéskó ►
Strong's Concordance
apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.
HELPS Word-studies
599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

2837. koimaó from NG2749 ►
Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death

 71. agó ►
Strong's Concordance
agó: to lead, bring, carry
Original Word: ἄγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agó
Phonetic Spelling: (ag'-o)
Definition: to lead, bring, carry
Usage: I lead, lead away, bring (a person, or animal), guide, spend a day, go.

The DIRECTIONS we are given are clear and simple.  No grammar problem for me.  


Why did Jesus weep?   We know it wasn't for Lazarus. THEY JUST DIDN'T  GET IT.   SO very alike in this day are the 'Christians' like the 'Jews' of their day, got all the words, got all the grammar, got all the definitions...but can't find truth.

 

John 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

John 11:34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

John 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

John 11:37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

John 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in Himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?


John 11:33
Jesus therefore when He saw her weeping and the having come with her Jews weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled Himself

 1690. embrimaomai ►
Strong's Concordance
embrimaomai: to be moved with anger, to admonish sternly
Original Word: ἐμβριμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: embrimaomai
Phonetic Spelling: (em-brim-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to be moved with anger, to admonish sternly

Usage: I snort (with the notion of coercion springing out of displeasure, anger, indignation, antagonism), express indignant displeasure with some one; I charge sternly.

HELPS Word-studies

1690 embrimáomai (from 1722 /en, "engaged in" and brimaomai, "to snort") – properly, snort like an angry horse; (literally) "snort (roar) with rage" (BAGD) which expresses strong indignation, i.e. deep feeling that is moved to sternly admonish (A-S).

 

 5015. tarassó ►
Strong's Concordance
tarassó: to stir up, to trouble
Original Word: ταράσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tarassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tar-as'-so)
Definition: to stir up, to trouble
Usage: I disturb, agitate, stir up, trouble.
HELPS Word-studies
5015 tarássō – properly, put in motion (to agitate back-and-forth, shake to-and-fro); (figuratively) to set in motion what needs to remain still (at ease); to "trouble" ("agitate"), causing inner perplexity (emotional agitation) from getting too stirred up inside ("upset").

[5015 (tarássō) translates 46 Hebrew words in the LXX (Abbott-Smith), showing the enormous connotation power of OT Hebrew vocabulary.]


 

2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2 Corinthians 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinth 2:15  Greek
For of Christ a sweet perfume we are to God in those being saved and in those perishing

 4982. sózó ►
Strong's Concordance
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Definition: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

HELPS Word-studies
4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]

622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

16  to one indeed an odor from death to death, to one now, a fragrance from life to life.  And for these things who [is] sufficient?
 

life to life - NO DEATH for those BORN AGAIN.



2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3339. metamorphoó ►
Strong's Concordance
metamorphoó: to transform
Original Word: μεταμορφόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metamorphoó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-am-or-fo'-o)
Definition: to transform
Usage: I transform, transfigure.
HELPS Word-studies
3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445 /morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.

[3339 (metamorphóō) is the root of the English terms "metamorphosis" and "metamorphize."]


 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IF only there were a way to RECONCILE THOSE DEAD WITH those who WILL NEVER DIE.  

LOOK what you are asking me to believe

Those Christ ASSURES will NEVER DIE  are to be FOUND DEAD until they rise.  

It is THE DEAD who rise.  The DEAD who will stand in judgment 1000 years later.  THE DEAD those MADE ALIVE will rule and reign over.  THE DEAD who will see the glory of GOD and shall witness the ALIVE AND REMAINING being changed and gathered TOGETHER WITH THOSE SAINTS WHO RETURN WITH CHRIST. Those who  receive IMMORTALITY


Those DEAD who rise STILL will be facing  'THE 2nd DEATH'.  HOPEFULLY they will during the 1000 years get THEIR NAMES written in the book of life so they don't end up in the lake of fire.  


THOSE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, THOSE WHO HAVE DIED WITH CHRIST AND BEEN RAISED WITH HIM, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, THOSE WHO WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE HEARD AND BELIEVED, THOSE WHO RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION

WILL NEVER EVER EVER AGAIN BE COUNTED AMONGST 

THE DEAD.  


CHRIST WAS THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM

WHO SLEPT.  WERE DEAD.  DIED UNDER THE LAW.  DIED BEFORE THE 'GOOD NEWS' WAS MADE AVAILABLE TO ALL. 

He went and preached to THOSE DEAD, 

and all who were WASHED CLEAN by the blood of the Lamb slain, had their graves opened, and ROSE with Him when He ascended, who WERE DEAD, BUT NOW LIVETH, 

 

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:



'THEM THAT SLEPT' are those who HEAR when He descends  


 he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:




EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN BORN AND BELIEVED IN THE SAVIOUR EVER SINCE THAT DAY

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me

SHALL NEVER DIE.   

 3756. ou, ouk, ouch ►

Strong's Concordance

ou, ouk, ouch: not, no

Original Word: οὐ
Part of Speech: Particle, Negative
Transliteration: ou, ouk, ouch
Phonetic Spelling: (oo)
Definition: not, no
Usage: no, not.

HELPS Word-studies

3756 ou – no ("not"). 3756 (ou) objectively negates a statement, "ruling it out as fact."

[3756 (ou) is written ouk before smooth breathings and oux before a rough breathing.]

 

3361. mé ►
Strong's Concordance
mé: not, that...not, lest (used for qualified negation)
Original Word: μή
Part of Speech: Particle, Negative
Transliteration: mé
Phonetic Spelling: (may)
Definition: not, that...not, lest (used for qualified negation)
Usage: not, lest.
HELPS Word-studies
3361 mḗ (a particle which functions as an adverb) – no, not. 3361 (mḗ) negates "subjectively," ruling out any implications ("suggestions") that could be involved with what should (could, would) apply.

3361 /mḗ ("not") negates the underlying idea (concept) of a statement, ruling out its possibilities, i.e. all that it suggests on a conceptual or hypothetical plane.

[3361 /mḗ ("not, no") then negates the implications (suggestions) that naturally spring from the negated statement.]

 

 

599. apothnéskó ►
Strong's Concordance
apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.
HELPS Word-studies
599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."

599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599 (apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.

Believest thou this?

Thank you for your lengthy replies. I appreciate your effort and the time you took. If you're in agreement I will let you have the last word - and the interested reader can judge.

Go well.