Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[transmogrified]

45 minutes ago, Sister said:

They are the resurrected 'in Christ' from all generations after Christ came preaching the kingdom.

If they are the resurrected 'in Christ' from all generations after Christ came preaching the gospel, then they would be those 'that are Christ's at his coming,' and would be resurrected and changed at the last trump into incorruptible bodies...they will be like the angels and will rule as kings and priests over the nations. If they are 'in Christ' then that means they are the 'dead in Christ' who rise first in 1 Thess. 4...this means they would be those who would be part of the saints who return with Jesus and fight at Armageddon. 

However, these are shown serving God in the temple day and night and he that sits on the throne is dwelling among them...

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in the his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them...the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them..."

Those who are ruling and reigning with Christ will be sitting in the throne with God and will be Kings and Priests...

Rev. 3:21 -"To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my father in his throne..."

Rev. 2:26 - "And he that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, will I give power over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

Rev. 5:10 - '....and made them to our God kings and priests, and they shall reign over the earth.."

These are distinct differences between those who are in glorified bodies and those who are the nations but still in natural bodies who go up to serve God in his temple and go up from year to year to keep the feast of tabernacles.

If they are the dead in Christ, then they are also those who belong to Christ which would place them in the category of those who are raised on the last day in John 6:39

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"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.'

By the definition given they are the dead in Christ, as it was said:

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They are the resurrected 'in Christ' from all generations after Christ came preaching the kingdom. 

To be resurrected and to be in Christ, this would make you the 'dead in Christ' who would be raised first according to 1 Thes. 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of god; and the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

There are only two parts to the first resurrection...Christ the firstfruits, afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.' 

If they were the resurrected saints, they would be in a ruling position with Christ, not serving God in his temple...

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

What did I do wrong? How were the events specified fulfilled in the time of Antiochus? 

Commentary by Matthew Henry:

[1.] Confirmed by an oath. The man clothed in linen lifted up both his hands to heaven, and swore by him that lives for ever and ever that it should be so. Thus the mighty angel whom St. John saw is brought in, with a plain reference to this vision, standing with his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the earth, and with his hand lifted up to heaven, swearing that there shall be no longer delay, Rev. 10:5, 6. This Mighty One that Daniel saw stood with both feet on the water, and swore with both hands lifted up. Note, An oath is of use for confirmation; God only is to be sworn by, for he is the proper Judge to whom we are to appeal; and lifting up the hand is a very proper and significant sign to be used in a solemn oath.

[2.] It is illustrated with a reason. God will suffer him to prevail till he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people. God will suffer him to do his worst, and run his utmost length, and then all these things shall be finished. Note, God's time to succour and relieve his people is when their affairs are brought to the last extremity; in the mount of the Lord it shall be seen that Isaac is saved just when he lies ready to be sacrificed. Now the event answered the prediction; Josephus says expressly, in his book of the Wars of the Jews, that Antiochus, surnamed Epiphanes, surprised Jerusalem by force, and held it three years and six months, and was then cast out of the country by the Asmoneans or Maccabees.

Others go on to say the extra days that bring it to 1290 is the amount of time it took for the news of the death of Antiochus to reach the the Jews. 

 

[Sister]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If they are the resurrected 'in Christ' from all generations after Christ came preaching the gospel, then they would be those 'that are Christ's at his coming,' and would be resurrected and changed at the last trump into incorruptible bodies...they will be like the angels and will rule as kings and priests over the nations. If they are 'in Christ' then that means they are the 'dead in Christ' who rise first in 1 Thess. 4...this means they would be those who would be part of the saints who return with Jesus and fight at Armageddon. 

Hi Gary

Yes. That's them.  I said they would be the resurrected, but I thought about this later, and that great multitude would include those 'living' who were 'quickened' also.  But yes, that lot.  You have two groups here, the great multitude, and the 144,000, the little flock.

Not all will rule as kings as priests.  This is only the heirarchy.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

However, these are shown serving God in the temple day and night and he that sits on the throne is dwelling among them...

Yes......

And where is God's temple?

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in the his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them...the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them..."

Those who are ruling and reigning with Christ will be sitting in the throne with God and will be Kings and Priests...

Trying to work out what you are getting at here?

 Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Revelation 7:15   Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

God is sitting on his throne in heaven.

To be 'before' the 'throne of God' means they are worshiping him in spirit, serving him day and night, always. If we kneel down in our bedrooms to pray we are also 'before the throne of God', serving him.  Does that mean we are physically up there in heaven?  No, we are in God's realm, speaking to him in his kingdom.

These saints are all changed to spirit.  They still have to communicate with the Father through Jesus.  When all is finished we will speak to God face to face, but until then, we go through Jesus.

And if we are serving God day and night in his 'temple' we have to understand what his temple means and where it is.

  1 Corinthians 3:16   Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

  1 Corinthians 3:17   If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

  2 Corinthians 6:16   And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 

So I'm still not sure what you are getting at? 

 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If they were the resurrected saints, they would be in a ruling position with Christ, not serving God in his temple...

I'm still confused?

You cannot break the two up.  To serve Christ is to serve God.  Christ is the Word of God.  Christ is in the Father, and if we are in Christ, we are in the Father also.  To serve God, you must serve Christ....standing before the throne of God serving him in his temple which is in us.

We don't have to be resurrected or quickened to do this, we can do this now.  That scripture in Rev 7 is just showing who the great multitude is serving, and why they are gathered there and accepted. They are not serving Satan, they are serving the living God, all because the Lamb has led them to him and washed them clean. 

Glory to the Most high, and glory to Lamb of God.

[Sister]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

God took upon himself a body of flesh and blood, as it says, 'and the word was made flesh.'

God's 'Word' became flesh.  The 'Word' that came out of God's mouth.

John 1:14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God's Word comes out of him, and God's Word is 'a living Word'.  God's Word obeys him, whatever he commands.

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

He was raised in an immortal body...but he had a flesh and bone body when he appeared to his disciples...he said touch me, for a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have. He ate food, he appeared and disappeared, and yet he had a body of flesh and bone that the disciples touched. 

Jesus was raised spirit.  He only appeared in the flesh so they wouldn't be frightened.  Didn't I explain this before?  Did you consider what I said earlier?

Spirit can take on the form of flesh. The angels did that when they ate with Lot.  They are not really made of flesh, but of spirit.  Jesus 'translated' into flesh.  That is not his real form.

If Jesus appeared to them in his real form, they would of be blinded.  Flesh cannot take that kind of brightness.

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The scripture does not use the phrase 'raised to spirit...' it says 'there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Jesus still had the nail prints in his hands and feet and was tangible. There was flesh and bones...bones have muscles, or sinews attached to them to make them work...when he appeared to Abraham he was in this glorified body that he had before the world was. He sat down and ate beef and milk and bread with Abraham and so did the other two angels that were with him.

 

If you think that 'flesh' is a glorified body, you have gone off track.

What appeared to Abraham was 'The Word of God' who was still spirit, not yet made flesh.  The Word of God was 'translated'.  God can translate his Word into whatever he wants.  He can translate his Word into a rock and give water to drink.  He can translate into Melchieseldek.  He can translate into an angel, or a man, or into a tree that gives life. That is not his real form.  His real form is spirit, like God.  Superior to flesh.

 

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The invisible God who is a spirit dwells inside that body as Paul said:

"For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily...' And...
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself...' and..

"Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest IN the flesh..." and...

Jesus said 'My Father who sent me is IN me...'

 

Yes, God was manifest in the flesh because HIS WORD dwelt in Christ. His Word is truth, and the Word was made Flesh.  Whatever Christ spoke was God speaking through him because God dwelt in him, and Christ dwelt in the Father.

What's so hard about understanding that?

John 17:8   For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 

John 14:10   Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
 

John 8:28   Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things

 

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

How were the events specified fulfilled in the time of Antiochus? 

The quote from Matthew Henry's commentary does not address how the events specified in Dan. 12:1-3 were fulfilled in the time of Antiochus. 

 

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

God will suffer him to prevail till he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people. God will suffer him to do his worst, and run his utmost length, and then all these things shall be finished.

The above quote is as close as he gets...he says 'and then all these things shall be finished,' but does not describe what things were to be finished. 

 

The things that were to be finished is all the wonders that were told Daniel...meaning:

1) Michael standing  up..

2) The time of trouble...

3) Israel being delivered...

4) The resurrection of the just and the unjust.

The quote from Matthew Henry does not mention these things being fulfilled at the time of Antiochus.

The question was "If Antiochus was the man in 12:7, then all these things were to be finished at by the end of his 3.5 year reign...the resurrection of the just and the unjust were to be completed by that time...but the resurrection of the just and the unjust has not yet happened...Antiochus does not fit the criteria...it doesn't matter how much history one can produce surrounding the events of Antiochus, the resurrection did not happen at that time...but all those events listed were to be completed by the end of the 3.5 year reign...all those events did not happen...Antiochus is not the man.

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Others go on to say the extra days that bring it to 1290 is the amount of time it took for the news of the death of Antiochus to reach the the Jews. 

The question was not about 1290 days..it was that the man in linen said all the things listed would be fulfilled by the end of th 3.5 year reign of Antiochus...adding the additional days to make 1290 instead of 1260 does not affect anything...the resurrection did not happen at the close of the 1260 days, neither did it happen at the end of the 1290 days, neither did it happen at the end of 1335 days. Antiochus is not the man...

Blessings to you- Gary

[Charlie744]

17 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The quote from Matthew Henry's commentary does not address how the events specified in Dan. 12:1-3 were fulfilled in the time of Antiochus. 

 

The above quote is as close as he gets...he says 'and then all these things shall be finished,' but does not describe what things were to be finished. 

 

The things that were to be finished is all the wonders that were told Daniel...meaning:

1) Michael standing  up..

2) The time of trouble...

3) Israel being delivered...

4) The resurrection of the just and the unjust.

The quote from Matthew Henry does not mention these things being fulfilled at the time of Antiochus.

The question was "If Antiochus was the man in 12:7, then all these things were to be finished at by the end of his 3.5 year reign...the resurrection of the just and the unjust were to be completed by that time...but the resurrection of the just and the unjust has not yet happened...Antiochus does not fit the criteria...it doesn't matter how much history one can produce surrounding the events of Antiochus, the resurrection did not happen at that time...but all those events listed were to be completed by the end of the 3.5 year reign...all those events did not happen...Antiochus is not the man.

The question was not about 1290 days..it was that the man in linen said all the things listed would be fulfilled by the end of th 3.5 year reign of Antiochus...adding the additional days to make 1290 instead of 1260 does not affect anything...the resurrection did not happen at the close of the 1260 days, neither did it happen at the end of the 1290 days, neither did it happen at the end of 1335 days. Antiochus is not the man...

Blessings to you- Gary

Question: Sorry for not have followed these many posts and am most likely jumping in without looking, but if the question is who 12:7 is, the One raising His hand who swears ….  Can He be anyone other than the Messiah?

Charlie

[transmogrified]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If they are the resurrected 'in Christ' from all generations after Christ came preaching the gospel, then they would be those 'that are Christ's at his coming,' and would be resurrected and changed at the last trump into incorruptible bodies...they will be like the angels and will rule as kings and priests over the nations. If they are 'in Christ' then that means they are the 'dead in Christ' who rise first in 1 Thess. 4...this means they would be those who would be part of the saints who return with Jesus and fight at Armageddon. 

Hi Gary

Yes. That's them.  I said they would be the resurrected, but I thought about this later, and that great multitude would include those 'living' who were 'quickened' also. 

Are you saying the great multitude is the resurrected saints in glorified bodies or are you saying they are the converted nations who are in natural bodies?

9 hours ago, Sister said:

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in the his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them...the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them..."

Those who are ruling and reigning with Christ will be sitting in the throne with God and will be Kings and Priests...

Trying to work out what you are getting at here?

I am saying there the resurrected saints are ruling over the nations...the nations are the ones who were converted at the Second Coming and are still in natural bodies serving God in the temple day and night...these are those that go up from year to year to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles and to learn God's ways. 

The resurrected saints are Priests and Kings who rule with Christ...they are sitting with Christ in his throne...the nations are not sitting with Christ in his throne...they are the ones being ruled over by Christ and the resurrected saints. 

9 hours ago, Sister said:

God is sitting on his throne in heaven.

God is not sitting in his throne in heaven when he comes again. When Christ comes this is God Almighty coming to the earth. According to Matthew 25 when the Son of Man comes THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...Christ is now on the earth...his throne is on the earth as he reigns from Jerusalem. Christ is God Almighty. 

When John sees him coming in Rev. 1:8 it says:

Behold he cometh with clouds...(who is this? This is the Second Coming of Jesus coming in the clouds) and every eye shall see him...(and who is he?)

He (Jesus) says 'I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith The Lord, which is, and which was, and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY.'

So when it says 'When the Son of Man shall come...it could also say 'When God Almighty comes, then shall God Almighty sit upon the throne of his glory...'

God is no longer in heaven...he has now come to the earth. His throne is in Jerusalem from where he will rule the world.

9 hours ago, Sister said:

To be 'before' the 'throne of God' means they are worshiping him in spirit, serving him day and night, always. If we kneel down in our bedrooms to pray we are also 'before the throne of God', serving him.  Does that mean we are physically up there in heaven?  No, we are in God's realm, speaking to him in his kingdom.

 

Yes, that is how it is now...but during the 1000 years things will be different.

9 hours ago, Sister said:

These saints are all changed to spirit. 

Those who come out of great tribulation are not resurrected saints...they are in natural bodies in a subservient position to Christ and the saints...the resurrected saints are sitting WITH Christ on the throne...but he dwells AMONG the nations...the nations are not sitting with Christ ruling the nations...the nations are being ruled by Christ and the saints. That is why they are being fed and led unto fountains of living waters...they are learning of God's ways just like it said of those who go up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles:

 

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And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

The above group is the great multitude that converted at the Second Coming and have washed their robes...they are now in the 'learning' mode...not in the 'ruling' mode. 

9 hours ago, Sister said:

When all is finished we will speak to God face to face, but until then, we go through Jesus.

Jesus himself will be ruling from Jerusalem...but of course this is God Almighty in a body...we still go through Jesus. As it says:

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"And there shall be no more curse... but the Throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."

It's called the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb, but yet only one is sitting on the throne..his servants shall serve him (singular) ...they see his face  (singular) his name (singular) shall be in their foreheads...The one sitting on the throne is the Alpha and Omega, The Ancient of Days...The Lord Jesus Christ...God Almighty...his name shall be called:

1) Wonderful..

2) Counsellor

3) Prince of Peace

4) The Mighty God

5)  Everlasting Father

9 hours ago, Sister said:

And if we are serving God day and night in his 'temple' we have to understand what his temple means and where it is.

This scripture is not talking about the resurrected saints serving God in his temple...it is talking about the great multitude going up to Jerusalem to learn of God's ways...he will rule from Jerusalem...When Jesus returns to the earth where does it say the word of God comes from?

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for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

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The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem;

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Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

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Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

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And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

 

10 hours ago, Sister said:

So I'm still not sure what you are getting at? 

The resurrected saints are Kings and Priests who rule over the nations with Christ...those in natural bodies who are left and are converted at the Second Coming are not ruling with Christ, they are being ruled by Christ and the resurrected saints.

10 hours ago, Sister said:

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If they were the resurrected saints, they would be in a ruling position with Christ, not serving God in his temple...

I'm still confused?

The confusion is based in the great multitude being resurrected saints...they are the converted nations who are still in natural bodies and are being ruled over by Christ and the resurrected saints...if this great multitude was truly the resurrected saints, they would not be in a subservient position being fed and taken to living waters, rather they would be ruling over the nations..there are two roles..one is a ruling role that the resurrected saints have, and the other role is the nations who are converted who are ruled over by the resurrected saints....the identity of these two groups is defined by what they do...if they are going up to learn of God's ways, they are the nations...the ones who are ruling are not going up to learn of God's ways...they are ruling over those who are learning....

10 hours ago, Sister said:

You cannot break the two up.  To serve Christ is to serve God.  Christ is the Word of God.  Christ is in the Father, and if we are in Christ, we are in the Father also.  To serve God, you must serve Christ....standing before the throne of God serving him in his temple which is in us.

The issue is who is learning about God and who is ruling over the nations...of course to serve Christ is to serve God...when it says they are before the throne of God serving him it is identifying those who are before the throne of God on earth and who are learning about God's ways...it is not the resurrected saints...the resurrected saints have been rewarded and are in the ruling mode, not in the learning about God mode...those who are learning about God are the nations who converted...not the resurrected saints.

10 hours ago, Sister said:

We don't have to be resurrected or quickened to do this, we can do this now. 

Yes, we can do this now...but when Jesus comes things will change. 

10 hours ago, Sister said:

That scripture in Rev 7 is just showing who the great multitude is serving, and why they are gathered there and accepted.

Yes, they are there serving God...being fed and led to fountains of living waters...these are the nations who have converted and now they are being educated about the ways of God

10 hours ago, Sister said:

They are not serving Satan,

Of course they are not serving Satan...satan is bound for the 1000 years so he can deceive the nations no more during that time.

10 hours ago, Sister said:

they are serving the living God, all because the Lamb has led them to him and washed them clean. 

Yes, they have just been converted...but like all of us were when we first got converted, we had to learn about God's ways and follow him...this is what is happening to the nations...they beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks and learn war no more...they are being re-educated.

10 hours ago, Sister said:

Glory to the Most high, and glory to Lamb of God.

Amen and Amen Sister- 

[transmogrified]

58 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Question: Sorry for not have followed these many posts and am most likely jumping in without looking, but if the question is who 12:7 is, the One raising His hand who swears ….  Can He be anyone other than the Messiah?

Charlie

Hi Charlie...Good to meet you...:)

    The question was not particularly about who the one in linen is...I am thinking it is Jesus himself, as you are. The question was mainly about where it says 'And when HE shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all these things shall be finished.' 

It is alleged this is Antiochus but he doesn't fit the bill as all the things mentioned were to take place by the end of the 3.5 year period of scattering the holy people. The things that were to be finished at this time were:

1) Michael was to stand up...

2) Israel was to be delivered...

3) Time of trouble...

4) Resurrection of just and unjust was to be completed...

All of these things did not happen at the time of Antiochus, but they will happen during the time of the future antichrist. The antichrist appears in Dan. 11:21 and continues to where he comes to his end in  11:45 and is also the man in 12:7.

Blessings to you- Gary

[Sister]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Are you saying the great multitude is the resurrected saints in glorified bodies or are you saying they are the converted nations who are in natural bodies?

I am saying the great multitude of Rev 7 are those of the Resurrection.  Not converted nations in natural bodies.

It was a vision.  John saw the 144,000 get sealed before the tribulation started, then he saw the end, after the great tribulation - the other large group of saints in the resurrection.

I expounded on what it means to be standing before the throne of God, in his temple, that it doesn't mean you are actually physically 'in heaven'  but symbolises who they are serving - the living God.  I showed you that 'we' the saints are God's temple.  So if our heart (love) is for God, and he is No. 1, he will dwell inside us because that's where his Word abides. 

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The confusion is based in the great multitude being resurrected saints...they are the converted nations who are still in natural bodies and are being ruled over by Christ and the resurrected saints...if this great multitude was truly the resurrected saints, they would not be in a subservient position being fed and taken to living waters, rather they would be ruling over the nations..there are two roles..one is a ruling role that the resurrected saints have, and the other role is the nations who are converted who are ruled over by the resurrected saints....the identity of these two groups is defined by what they do...if they are going up to learn of God's ways, they are the nations...the ones who are ruling are not going up to learn of God's ways...they are ruling over those who are learning....

Do you remember the scriptures I gave you about the shepherds?  God is angry at the shepherds.  Israel had shepherds that led them astray, and so has the Christian land.  The shepherds he is angry at are the many who have taught false doctrine.  They have fouled the waters,...fouled the truth.  They have used the flock for 'meat', making money of them, getting fat from them and leaving the flock lean, spiritually starving.  They have not fed the flock properly and left them diseased and sickly.

So because the flocks, and there are many from all sorts of denominations have depended on the shepherds to feed them truth, they accepted whatever they were taught, but the sheep didn't realise that they were taught error and false doctrine.  They blindly trusted these shepherds.  You see we have to depend on the Word of God to teach us.  We have to read and find the truth for ourselves, and not be lazy and depend on someone else to give us the truth.  This is what God wants, for us to search his Word out directly and let his living Word teach us.  It's a journey, and we will make mistakes, but as we keep searching, the Word will correct us, and teach us true doctrine.

Many of the sheep have been led into error.  Error of doctrine.  But because of mercy, they will be taught after their change.  These ones will not be the kings or priests, because they have to learn, and everything with God is a process.  The angels in heaven are still learning also.  Some angels have more wisdom than others, some in higher authority, being brighter than others, having more responsibility.  Others not so bright, having different jobs.  It will be the same the saints.  Some are brighter than others, more light in them, some not so much light.  Remember the different vessels?  According to what one has sown in this life, that is what he shall reap.

Revelation 7:17   For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

It's clear, these saints will be given pure truth, and given the holy spirit, (the spirit of truth), the full truth, after their change, and their spirit will be perfected through that, and they will get brighter as they are taught I presume, gaining more wisdom.  The truth will be straightened out for them for the Lamb will feed them directly.

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hi Charlie...Good to meet you...:)

    The question was not particularly about who the one in linen is...I am thinking it is Jesus himself, as you are. The question was mainly about where it says 'And when HE shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all these things shall be finished.' 

It is alleged this is Antiochus but he doesn't fit the bill as all the things mentioned were to take place by the end of the 3.5 year period of scattering the holy people. The things that were to be finished at this time were:

1) Michael was to stand up...

2) Israel was to be delivered...

3) Time of trouble...

4) Resurrection of just and unjust was to be completed...

All of these things did not happen at the time of Antiochus, but they will happen during the time of the future antichrist. The antichrist appears in Dan. 11:21 and continues to where he comes to his end in  11:45 and is also the man in 12:7.

Blessings to you- Gary

Oh, and thank you! Well, from my perspective that is an easy one ... but this is not saying you will or have to agree with it... This can be none other than the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. He is the one who will appropriate the power and sit atop the papal Rome beast and will attack the Word of God and everything He stands for... He (the  little horn) is the one that is identified in Gabriel's Interpretation Sequence who describes in the chapter 8 vision (chazon vision) all the things he will be allowed to do UNTIL he is destroyed without human hands (at the second coming of the Messiah). This chapter 8 "chazon vision" is a listing of the terrible little horn prophecies he will do for almost 1500 years … however, in chapter 12, it is the Lord who will answer Gabriel's question (similar to his in 8:13 and God's response in 8:14), where he (Gabriel) is now posing the question not as prophecies any longer but "wonders". The "wonders" of how this little horn could possibly do these terrible things against the Lord.... (wonders not in a good sense).

Charlie