Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[DeighAnn]

58 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The two witnesses SHOW UP and begin testifying just days (I believe 3.5 days) before the abomination that will divide the week. The abomination is marked by the 7th trumpet. They then testify for their 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. They lay dead those 3/5 days and they are raised up at the END Of the week, at the 7th vial. 

Christ return is marked by the 7 trump, not Satan.  

 

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.  

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


TO ME, 
The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit IS NOT DOING SO AT THIS MOMENT, that is just THE NAME THEY ARE USING FOR IDENTIFICATION OF WHO HAS THEM KILLED. 


And this is who has them killed

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If you believe he is ascending at that moment, then show me when he went into 

WHEN in previous verses or chapters was he cast into the bottom less pit so that he is able to be ascending out of it at this point?   





 

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The 7th trump is the END of Satan and when HE IS CAST INTO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT.

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Ha ha ha! I guess you imagine the Beast will just STEAL 42 months of authority after Jesus is made KING over all?

The truth is, God made this decision (that the Beast would have 42 months of authority) probably before the foundations of the earth. John wrote it in Revelation around 95 AD. 

Perhaps then I should have written only that after Jesus becomes King over the earth, He just remains in heaven while the Beast uses up the authority allotted Him by the almighty God. One thing is sure: Jesus will not return to earth until after the 70th week is finished.

Shalom, iamlamad.

The Beast is haSatan's henchman, whose been known to steal a few things himself. Yes, ultimately, God is the One who declares the end from the beginning, but there's a difference between laying claim to the kingdoms of the world and actually reigning over them.

He WINS back His Land!

He SUBDUES His enemies!

Things don't happen instantaneously in real life. It's not like a sudden rise on the timeline - like two blocks laying side by side, one labeled the kingdom of the Beast and the other the Kingdom of God's Messiah! They fit together like the beginning of a Bell curve! Yeshua`s Kingdom starts out small - like a grain of mustard seed - but it GROWS until it becomes a tree where birds can nest in its branches!

That's what this parable was all about:

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

Can we at least agree that His Kingdom STARTS at the "midpoint" and continues to grow until the final battle in Revelation 19?

And, there is EVIDENCE in Revelation that the Resurrection begins earlier than the start of His Kingdom.

First, starting our search in Revelation 20, we learn that the Resurrection has already occurred by then because the Resurrected are given thrones in verses 4-5. 

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (Greek: tas psuchas = Hebrew: hanfashiym = "the air-breathing-creatures") of them that were beheaded (Greek: pepelekismenoon = "having-been-beheaded", perfect participle passive) for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (Greek: ezeesan = "they-lived", aorist indicative active) and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Thus, the Resurrection had already been accomplished before they could begin their reign. While this passage NOTES the First Resurrection, it doesn't happen here. It is a GROUP of people who have already BEEN resurrected who now take their thrones.

Simply go back farther in the book of Revelation: 

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven (the sky) opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns (ALREADY!); and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood (He already came from battle): and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven (in the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS (plural), AND LORD OF LORDS (plural)."

The "white horse" is a literal horse which needs ground upon which to run, and its Rider, "the Word of God," already has many authorities (crowns) upon his head. He is wearing clothing already dipped or dyed (Greek: bebammenon = "having been dipped/submerged", perfect participle passive, coming from "baptoo," from which we get our word "baptize") in blood! And, that's not HIS blood, as some claim; it is the blood of His ENEMIES!

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, we're still not there; these have already been resurrected, as well. The armies that were with Him were also on literal horses that need ground upon which to run, wearing white and clean clothing. Go back farther:

Revelation 18:20-24 (KJV)

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets (Greek: Eufrainou ep' autee, ourane kai hoi hagioi kai hoi apostoloi kai hoi profeetai = "Rejoice upon her, sky and the holy-ones and the sent-ones and the prophets"); for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,

"Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

It's hard to rejoice if you're still dead. No, go back farther:

Revelation 17:8-14 (KJV)

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

So, we're looking at symbolism that represents 18 kings:
5 fallen
1 is (at the time John wrote this)
1 is yet to come
1 is the beast itself (he is from the seven, an heir); he goes into destruction
10 kings who don't have a kingdom, yet, but give their power and strength to the beast
--
18 kings

All these (less the 5 who are fallen) make war with the Lamb of God, and the Lamb shall overpower them.

BUT, they who are with Him are the called (Greek: kleetoi) and the chosen (Greek: eklektoi = the "elect") and the faithful (Greek: pistoi, the "trustworthy"). These are physically with Him, and He is back; so, this again follows the Resurrection.

So, we must look farther back:

Revelation 15:2-4 (KJV)

2 And I saw as (something like) it were a sea (Greek: thalassan = "a-lake") of glass mingled (mixed) with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand (Greek: hestootas = "standing", coming from "histeemi" which is hard to do if one hasn't yet "anisteemi" or "stood up" from the dead!) on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints (holy ones). 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship (bow) before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

We must look farther back: ... You can see how this is going, I hope! We must go all the way back to the sixth chapter!

Revelation 6:9-17 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

These are the herald meteorites, the falling "stars of the sky" falling "unto the earth."

The meteorites and their aftermath do not end until the fifth trumpet, which are air-raid sirens, warning of imminent disaster!

THIS is the part of Revelation that matches what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

Consider each version of what Yeshua` said:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (brightness). 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

What follows this scene in Revelation 6? Revelation 7 through 9, the rest of the meteorite shower, which include the sealing of the servants of God, all of them, not just the 144,000 children of Israel! Then, the trumpet judgments, the final three "woes," end with the Seventh Trumpet - the LAST Trumpet - that begins God's reign over the earth.

Notice what is said in Revelation 7:

Revelation 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying,

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying,

"Amen (Truth): Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever! Amen (Truth)!"

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

"What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him,

"Sir, thou knowest."

And he said to me,

"These are they which came OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

So, they were resurrected at the 5th Seal, and they've been transported to the throne by this point in Revelation 7.

One last thing: Look at EVERY mention of the word "heaven" in Revelation. You will find that they ALL are from the Greek word "ouranos" meaning the "sky." Not until someone or something is flying in the sky do we hear the word "mesouraneema," meaning "in the middle of the sky." And, Paul's word for "above the sky," "epouranios," is NEVER ONCE MENTIONED in the book of Revelation! Why do you suppose that is?

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...

Can we at least agree that His Kingdom STARTS at the "midpoint" and continues to grow until the final battle in Revelation 19?

And, there is EVIDENCE in Revelation that the Resurrection begins earlier than the start of His Kingdom.

First, starting our search in Revelation 20, we learn that the Resurrection has already occurred by then because the Resurrected are given thrones in verses 4-5. 

Thus, the Resurrection had already been accomplished before they could begin their reign. While this passage NOTES the First Resurrection, it doesn't happen here. It is a GROUP of people who have already BEEN resurrected who now take their thrones.

 ...

Quote

Can we at least agree that His Kingdom STARTS at the "midpoint" and continues to grow until the final battle in Revelation 19?

I cannot agree with this. Allow me to change it slightly.

"Can we at least agree that His Kingdom is taken legally from Satan and given to Him at the "midpoint" but He will not take physical possession until the final battle in Revelation 19?"

Can we agree on this rewritten sentence?

One could argue or disagree on where or when the Millennial reign begins - perhaps at the battle of Armageddon, or later. However, I think the change in millenniums takes place at the 7th trumpet when the property "closing" takes place in the throne room of heaven. 

I think we both can agree that the Kingdom is well underway in the first verses of chapter 20. I agree that all resurrections of the righteous have taken place by this time.

Quote

While this passage NOTES the First Resurrection, it doesn't happen here.

Brilliant deduction! I could not agree more.

I think scripture proves the church is resurrected (and caught up) before the 7 years. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected "on the last day" of the 7 years. What do I base this on?

In Matthew 27 when Jesus rose, and then resurrected the elders of the Old Covenant, there was a corresponding earthquake. This makes good sense to me because I believe there will always be an earthquake when God resurrects those long dead. I think the process will be that God calls together the "dust" that once formed those bodies and reforms them just as they were when then passed. For those long dead, some of that "dust" may well be scattered for miles on all directions, but in one instant, God will gather it all back to the grave. Whether on the Quark level or perhaps even smaller particles, I believe God knows each piece of dust that once made up those bodies.

I suspect then, to find the place where the Old Testament saints rise, I should also find the world's worst ever earthquake, as God brings together the dust of those who died before the flood. The "dust" of those bodies could be thousands of miles separated from each other, or be a hundred miles deep. The flood and then the ice age moved a lot of real estate.

Therefore I looked for earthquakes in revelation that would match a time of a resurrection from other passages. According to Paul, the rapture would come just before the start of God's wrath. I believe the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of His wrath. I then noticed a great earthquake at the 6th seal. I think that earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising.

Then John wrote of the world's worst earthquake, that will shake the mountains down into the earth, at the 7th vial that will end the Week. That matches Jesus' words that He will raise them up "on the last day."

Therefore, as you said, the resurrections of the righteous will be already accomplished by the first verses of chapter 20.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...

Simply go back farther in the book of Revelation: 

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven (the sky) opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns (ALREADY!); and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood (He already came from battle): and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven (in the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS (plural), AND LORD OF LORDS (plural)."

The "white horse" is a literal horse which needs ground upon which to run, and its Rider, "the Word of God," already has many authorities (crowns) upon his head. He is wearing clothing already dipped or dyed (Greek: bebammenon = "having been dipped/submerged", perfect participle passive, coming from "baptoo," from which we get our word "baptize") in blood! And, that's not HIS blood, as some claim; it is the blood of His ENEMIES!

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, we're still not there; these have already been resurrected, as well. The armies that were with Him were also on literal horses that need ground upon which to run, wearing white and clean clothing. Go back farther:

Revelation 18:20-24 (KJV)

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets (Greek: Eufrainou ep' autee, ourane kai hoi hagioi kai hoi apostoloi kai hoi profeetai = "Rejoice upon her, sky and the holy-ones and the sent-ones and the prophets"); for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,

"Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

It's hard to rejoice if you're still dead. No, go back farther:

Revelation 17:8-14 (KJV)

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

So, we're looking at symbolism that represents 18 kings:
5 fallen
1 is (at the time John wrote this)
1 is yet to come
1 is the beast itself (he is from the seven, an heir); he goes into destruction
10 kings who don't have a kingdom, yet, but give their power and strength to the beast
--
18 kings

All these (less the 5 who are fallen) make war with the Lamb of God, and the Lamb shall overpower them.

BUT, they who are with Him are the called (Greek: kleetoi) and the chosen (Greek: eklektoi = the "elect") and the faithful (Greek: pistoi, the "trustworthy"). These are physically with Him, and He is back; so, this again follows the Resurrection.

So, we must look farther back:

Revelation 15:2-4 (KJV)

2 And I saw as (something like) it were a sea (Greek: thalassan = "a-lake") of glass mingled (mixed) with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand (Greek: hestootas = "standing", coming from "histeemi" which is hard to do if one hasn't yet "anisteemi" or "stood up" from the dead!) on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints (holy ones). 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship (bow) before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

We must look farther back: ... You can see how this is going, I hope! We must go all the way back to the sixth chapter!

Revelation 6:9-17 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

These are the herald meteorites, the falling "stars of the sky" falling "unto the earth."

The meteorites and their aftermath do not end until the fifth trumpet, which are air-raid sirens, warning of imminent disaster!

THIS is the part of Revelation that matches what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

Consider each version of what Yeshua` said:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (brightness). 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

What follows this scene in Revelation 6? Revelation 7 through 9, the rest of the meteorite shower, which include the sealing of the servants of God, all of them, not just the 144,000 children of Israel! Then, the trumpet judgments, the final three "woes," end with the Seventh Trumpet - the LAST Trumpet - that begins God's reign over the earth.

Notice what is said in Revelation 7:

Revelation 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying,

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying,

"Amen (Truth): Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever! Amen (Truth)!"

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

"What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him,

"Sir, thou knowest."

And he said to me,

"These are they which came OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

So, they were resurrected at the 5th Seal, and they've been transported to the throne by this point in Revelation 7.

One last thing: Look at EVERY mention of the word "heaven" in Revelation. You will find that they ALL are from the Greek word "ouranos" meaning the "sky." Not until someone or something is flying in the sky do we hear the word "mesouraneema," meaning "in the middle of the sky." And, Paul's word for "above the sky," "epouranios," is NEVER ONCE MENTIONED in the book of Revelation! Why do you suppose that is?

Quote

THIS is the part of Revelation that matches what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24:29-31

(You had just talked about seals 4 & 5.) How can you get around "after the tribulation of those days...?"

Have you not delineated "the tribulation" or the 70th week in Revelation yet?

Where in Revelation would these words, "after the tribulation" fit? They would fit ANY time after the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. 

You are trying to align points BEFORE the 70th week, with points AFTER the 70th week. This is impossible because TIME takes place between the 6th seal and the 7th vial. All the events of chapters 8 through 16 will take place between the 6th seal START of the Day of His wrath and the end of the 70th week.

Neither can you possibly say that Revelation is not chronological. Well, you might say it but you could never prove it. Revelation is VERY chronological, but one must recognize where John used parenthesis. Here is one parenthesis easy to spot.

Rev 20:...

4...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: 

There is a parenthesis in chapter 11, and another in chapter 13. John used the concept of parentheses, but at that time no marks were used. We must discover them by study.

The other except to a straight chronology is when a prophecy is given such as:

Revelation 11:

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

All the events written in verse 18 will not be accomplished in the timing of verse 18 (the midpoint of the week.) John's point is, now that the kingdoms of the world have been legally given to Jesus, These events can now take place in their given time.

Can you agree with at least some of this?

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

The "white horse" is a literal horse which needs ground upon which to run, and its Rider, "the Word of God," already has many authorities (crowns) upon his head. He is wearing clothing already dipped or dyed (Greek: bebammenon = "having been dipped/submerged", perfect participle passive, coming from "baptoo," from which we get our word "baptize") in blood! And, that's not HIS blood, as some claim; it is the blood of His ENEMIES!

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, we're still not there; these have already been resurrected, as well. The armies that were with Him were also on literal horses that need ground upon which to run, wearing white and clean clothing. Go back farther:

...

Quote

 

The "white horse" is a literal horse which needs ground upon which to run,

The armies that were with Him were also on literal horses that need ground upon which to run

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

These are FLYING horses! 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "white horse" is a literal horse which needs ground upon which to run, and its Rider, "the Word of God," already has many authorities (crowns) upon his head. He is wearing clothing already dipped or dyed (Greek: bebammenon = "having been dipped/submerged", perfect participle passive, coming from "baptoo," from which we get our word "baptize") in blood! And, that's not HIS blood, as some claim; it is the blood of His ENEMIES!

Will Jesus have been in Edom before John saw Him leave heaven after the Marriage and supper? I think that is very doubtful. Therefore I don't believe this is His enemy's blood. His shed blood is the price He paid for redemption. I suggest, if we follow the written Chronology, it is HIS blood of the Covenant.

Where was Jesus just before John saw Him leave heaven on the white horse? Without a doubt, He was seen presiding over the marriage and supper. I see no room here for Him to have already been in Edom. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Revelation 18:20-24 (KJV)

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets (Greek: Eufrainou ep' autee, ourane kai hoi hagioi kai hoi apostoloi kai hoi profeetai = "Rejoice upon her, sky and the holy-ones and the sent-ones and the prophets"); for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,

"Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

It's hard to rejoice if you're still dead. No, go back farther:

I disagree: the dead CAN and DO rejoice - that is, those who are the redeemed of both the Old and New covenants. They are rejoicing TODAY in heaven.

By the way, can you agree that John's intended meaning here for "that great city Babylon" is the "mystery" city of Jerusalem from where the entire world will be deceived by the two Beasts?

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

These are the herald meteorites, the falling "stars of the sky" falling "unto the earth."

The meteorites and their aftermath do not end until the fifth trumpet, which are air-raid sirens, warning of imminent disaster!

THIS is the part of Revelation that matches what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

I have already covered the proper timing of this 6th seal: God begins the Day of the Lord (at the 6th seal) BEFORE He begins the 70th week (at the 7th seal) so that the entire 70th week will be INSIDE the Day of the Lord. This is proof that every judgment event of the 70th week will come with God's wrath.

Quote

The meteorites and their aftermath do not end until the fifth trumpet

Why would ANYONE imagine meteorites involved with the martyrs of the church age. Hopefully you do know that is what the 5th seal is all about? 

Seal 1: the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL

Seals 2, 3, and 4: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - to HOLD IT within that one fourth of the earth where the gospel begain: Jerusalem.

Seal 5: Because God allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wide beasts to try and stop the advance of the gospel, many saints were murdered and became martyrs. That is what the 5th seal is about. The church has been waiting there at the 5th seal ever since early martyrs such as Stephen. When the final martyr is killed, the rapture will take place, and then the Day of the Lord will begin.

I think you need to restudy this.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...

Notice what is said in Revelation 7:

Revelation 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying,

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying,

"Amen (Truth): Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever! Amen (Truth)!"

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

"What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him,

"Sir, thou knowest."

And he said to me,

"These are they which came OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

So, they were resurrected at the 5th Seal, and they've been transported to the throne by this point in Revelation 7.

One last thing: Look at EVERY mention of the word "heaven" in Revelation. You will find that they ALL are from the Greek word "ouranos" meaning the "sky." Not until someone or something is flying in the sky do we hear the word "mesouraneema," meaning "in the middle of the sky." And, Paul's word for "above the sky," "epouranios," is NEVER ONCE MENTIONED in the book of Revelation! Why do you suppose that is?

Why did John depart from his writing of the seals, one after another, at the 6th seal, and take an intermission as we see in chapter 7, before he could write of the 7th seal? 

Have you ever watched a play where they close the curtains between acts of the play? What happens behind the curtain? They are REARRANGING THE SETTING.

The truth is, John cannot write about the opening of the 7th seal that will begin the Day of the Lord UNTIL God the Father sees TWO EVENTS accomplished.

1. The 144,000 (and ONLY them) MUST be sealed for their protection before the 70th week begins (It begins AT the 7th seal and WITH the first trumpet judgment.)

2. God our Father absolutely WILL NOT allow the 7th seal to be opened to begin the 70th week UNTIL HE SEES the raptured church safely in heaven.

That, my friend, is why John wrote chapter 7.

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So, they were resurrected at the 5th Seal

You are ad libbing! John wrote NOTHING about a resurrection at the 5th seal. But, you are close: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ will take place AFTER the final church age martyr is killed. Also the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the 6th seal is opened to begin the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the Koine Greek had a word for the third heaven where God dwells. 

Revelation 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

It is OK if you imagine God's throne floating in the sky on a cloud. I imagine His throne in a huge palace in the Holy City which is on the heavenly planet. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Christ return is marked by the 7 trump, not Satan.  

Please show us words written in chapter 11 after the 7th trumpet has sounded that tell you Christ returns then.

On the other hand, John shows His return in chapter 19. All the events of chapters 12 through 18 must and will take place after the 7th trumpet and before Christ comes.

BELIEVE THE WRITTEN WORD!