Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[iamlamad]

On 7/11/2022 at 12:26 PM, DeighAnn said:

Then why remove the couple billion who could help those who haven't come to faith if that is His desire?

And GOD HAS NO FEELINGs about 'left behind' because there is no pre trib rapture.  

SO YES, He wants labors and when does the  LABOR END?  LET THEM GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST, THEN BURN THE TARES AND GATHER THE WHEAT  

NOT GATHER THE WHEAT AND THEN BURN THE TARES.  

This is so simple: God will NOT subject His children to the time He will pour out His wrath on the earth. As Paul put it, God is setting NO APPOINTMENTS for us with His wrath. Why people are so determined to set their own appointments amazes me.

Quote

And GOD HAS NO FEELINGs about 'left behind' because there is no pre trib rapture.

Always remember, life and death are in the power of the tongue. Mark 11:23 ends with "He shall have whatsoever he says." 

By what you write, you are setting your own appointment with His wrath. Why not rather escape His wrath with the rest of the church?

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. 

This is not just some theory: Paul is clear that HIS rapture (the one he wrote about) will take place before God's wrath and before the Day of the Lord.

In Revelation the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal in chapter 6, but the "tribulation" or the 70th week comes after that (chapter 8 through chapter 16). That is why pretrib is the truth of scripture.

As further proof, John SAW the church in heaven right after the 6th seal and wrote about it as the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7.

As further proof, John wrote that the church age martyrs of seal 5 must wait until the final martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs - is killed. What is going to make the last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. It will END with the rapture and instantly TIME will be Day of the Lord and God's wrath poured out.

[iamlamad]

On 7/11/2022 at 12:22 PM, DeighAnn said:

I NEVER SAID NO ONE WOULD EVER DIE PHYSICALLY.  HOW MANY DIFFERENT WAYS DO I HAVE TO SAY THE EARTHEN FLESH DIES.  

What is the difference between dying under the law and under grace?

I believe you are finally saying that born again church people actually do die physically.  Good.

Dead is dead. The difference between dying back in the OT is that their spirits had to go DOWN, whether righteous or unrighteous. The righteous went to Abraham's bosom, while the unrighteous went to the fire.

Today only the unrighteous go down after death. The saints go to be with Jesus. That is, their SPIRIT with their soul goes.

[iamlamad]

On 7/11/2022 at 12:19 PM, DeighAnn said:

THE CAPTIVITY.  The captives.  Are you saying ONLY  the elders were held captive by death?  Isn't that reaching just a tad bit?  If THE CAPTIVITY was led then it was the CAPTIVITY that  I believe without question.   
 

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

NOTICE IT DOESN'T SAY TO SOME OF THE CAPTIVES, NOR DOES IT SAY TO SOME OF THE BOUND.  

Trying to GIVE IT 'a select amount' comes from trying to PROVE THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOCTINE.  We can go on and on and all it is going to prove is how much men are willing to CHANGE the words of God TO put forth the doctrines of man.  

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Where the spirits of the dead go upon dying has little to do with the timing of Paul's rapture. I am NOT saying ONLY the elders. ALL the Old Testament saints had to go down into the belly of the earth to await the coming of the Messiah.

Quote

how much men are willing to CHANGE the words of God

I have been waiting patiently for you to show me with scripture where I have changed anything. Paul wrote "the dead in Christ" as plainly as it could be written. The meaning is very clear. Saints - born again ones - died: their physical bodies gave up and their Spirits left the dead bodies and went to heaven.

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I believe you are finally saying that born again church people actually do die physically.  Good.

Dead is dead. The difference between dying back in the OT is that their spirits had to go DOWN, whether righteous or unrighteous. The righteous went to Abraham's bosom, while the unrighteous went to the fire.

Today only the unrighteous go down after death. The saints go to be with Jesus. That is, their SPIRIT with their soul goes.

Just wanted to ask... why do the dead THEN (OT), righteous or not, go to either Abraham's bosom (which  is clearly coming from a "parable" in the NT), or to be with Jesus, when the OT seems fairly clear - through David's writings - (here is just one, but it addresses everyone who died), the "dead know nothing". 

To be candid, I can not understand, unless one is taught or believes what happens to the dead as the RCC does, that anyone is currently sitting in a horrific fire. 

It can not be both - either the dead know nothing or there is some contradictions or different interpretations going on about the OT dead.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Paul is saying that when Jesus comes (NOT His Armageddon coming) He will bring with Him the spirits of those who passed (whose spirit left their body because their heart ceased to pump blood) - the spirits of those who died in Christ from verse 13 - the "dead in Christ."

HERE is what GOD SAYS HAPPENS.  Here is what the words of God say.  Here is what is said about the 'spirit'.

'WITH OR WITHOUT' body? 

What is written?  
 

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The question ISN'T do they come with a body, BUT WITH WHAT BODY.  If you can't figure out that that means with a body

GOD GIVES US MORE

 

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Hey fool, this BODY has to die for the OTHER body to be made alive, quickenedd.

 

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

This earth body,

the one that DIES for the next one to be made alive

IS NOT THE BODY THAT WILL EVENTURALLY BE RAISED. 

IS NOT THE BODY ANYONE IS COMING BACK FOR,

IS NOT THE BODY THAT ON THE LAST DAY WILL BE RESURRECTED. 

IS NOT THE BODY THAT WILL EVER BE AGAIN. 

THE ONLY THING THIS BODY PROVIDES FOR THE 'NEXT LIFE' THE 'CONTINUING ON LIFE' IS A BARE SEED FOR THE SPIRITUAL BODY.

WE just learned that the QUESTION ISN'T  

"does the spirit rise with a body, the question is WITH WHAT BODY does the spirit rise?  

If somehow that doesn't tell you that this body that dies is nothing more than a carcass that will never ever ever be resurrected GOD GIVES US MORE.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


SO to be sure that you never question whether we are ever WITHOUT a body, the words of GOD have told you without a doubt that there is a BARE GRAIN from this body and that is it.  There is nothing more.  There is NO RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD TO COME BACK FOR BECAUSE YOU WERE RAISED UP IN A SPIRITUAL BODY TO CONTINUE ON LIVING IN HEAVEN BECAUSE YOU NEVER DIE.  

I understand you want me to look like the one saying NEVER DIE makes me look nuts but HERE IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR TELLING US YOU WILL NEVER DIE.  


John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me


shall never die.


Believest thou this?



You EITHER believe or you don't.  

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How can I discuss logically with someone that imagines they will never die - that imagines born again people never die? I think it almost impossible, but I will try again.

So as you can see, YOU HAVE A REALLY BIG PROBLEM.  

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me

shall never die.

Believest thou this?

I believe this, WHY DON'T YOU?  How is it you don't believe the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,  when the words came out of HIS VERY OWN MOUTH? 

The more you try to make me look foolish the worse it is going to get.  Who can believe anything you say when you say things like what you said above?  You are calling not me, but JESUS A LIAR.  

And you can keep making these posts with these 'suggestive' questions, but I am going to address them all until it is clear, everything I put forth have WHAT IS WRITTEN, as it is written.  Not what 'is really meant'.  I believe GOD knew how to use the exact words He wanted and when 

JESUS SAID NEVER DIE, you should believe HIM and ADJUST your thinking to HIS TRUTH and not what you think.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  [By "asleep" Paul is talking about born again people who heart stopped, their spirit left their body, their body went into the grave, and their spirit rose up to be with the Lord. Most belivers call these saints "dead." Since they died in Christ, they are then the "dead in Christ."]

Yes, and ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND 'EVERY SEED GOD GIVES A BODY' you will QUIT telling people you are coming BACK FOR A BODY and you will start telling them YOU ARE RAISED WITH A BODY

AND YOU CONTINUE LIVING ON, IN HEAVEN, WITH THE LORD. 
 

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased HIM, and to every seed his own body.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Paul is saying that when Jesus comes (NOT His Armageddon coming) He will bring with Him the spirits of those who passed (whose spirit left their body because their heart ceased to pump blood) - the spirits of those who died in Christ from verse 13 - the "dead in Christ."

And what GOD is telling us is when Jesus comes for the 2nd Advent, the Lords Day that all who have been born in the flesh

and have had their flesh die

HAVE BEEN RAISED UP TO HEAVEN IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY,


ALIVE IN CHRIST


AND STILL LIVING because they NEVER DIE.  


 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [By "asleep" Paul is certainly not speaking of live people sleeping (what many do at night) but rather he is speaking of those who died - whose spirit left their body and their body was buried - hense, the "dead in Christ." They were born again so were baptized into the body of Christ (for short, "in Christ") so were a part of the body of Christ when they passed away (when their heart stopped and their spirit left their dead body). 

What GOD IS TELLING us is 

People who have been saved are LIVING AND DYING in their own order and going up to heaven in the order they live and die and NO ONE IS WAITING for anyone else to live and die to be raised up to heaven.  

The graves were opened when Christ defeated death and have NEVER BEEN USED again by A SAVED SOUL, as those who have been saved NEVER DIE and so never need a grave and so never resurrect FROM THE DEAD.  They are resurrected from the living THOUGH THEY GO FROM THE SEEN BODY TO THE UNSEEN BODY.  

if you didn't HAVE GODS TRUTH it would sure LOOK LIKE THEY DIED.  Their 'carcass' goes into a grave just like the unsaved.  BUT WE KNOW BETTER because we know the words and PROMISES OF GOD and in FAITH we take those words as GODS TRUTH and don't question if they are true or not.  THEY ARE TRUE and we live by every one of them.  


 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: This is not Jesus' Armageddon coming. It is His coming for His saints, to take them to a place of safety while He pours out His wrath. Those who were born again but passed away - those who were in Christ but died and their body buried - will rise first. First before who? First before those who are alive and in Christ get caught up and changed.

Since we KNOW that all people die physically because of Adam's sin (1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive) we can know positively that when Jesus said "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" - He MUST have meant die spiritually.

I think you have to come to grips with "in Christ."

I have no problem with THE DEAD being in Christ  Nor do I have a problem with those who continue on living being WITH CHRIST.  

This is His coming WITH THE SAINTS, not for the saints.  If you read it you would see, IT STARTS OFF WITH not being sad about those who have DIED/sleeping AS THE FLESH WORLD CALLS IT.  

Those who were in Christ died you say?  AGAIN, NOT SURE HOW THIS IS BEING MISSED.  

You seem to be able to read ME SAYING IT but it seems you keep not seeing JESUS SAYING IT.  

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth

and believeth in Me

shall never die.

Believest thou this?

AND IT IS NOT JUST SPIRITUALLY.  AS WE HAVE BORN THE EARTH WE WILL BEAR THE HEAVENLY.  

And with WHAT BODY do we rise????

The spiritual eternal body.

And what happens to this body???  It becomes no more than a carcass that provided A BARE GRAIN, that GOD gave a body to and it goes back to dust NEVER TO BE USED AGAIN.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can you find any scripture anywhere that shows our human spirit has a body after it leaves our flesh body?

I have always thought our human spirit was just that: a spirit separated from its physical body at death, but to be reunited to the old body resurrected and changed.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


 

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wow! Post after post you kept posting Jesus saying those that believe in Him never die. Now, finally, you are admitting our human body - even if we are born again - dies. 

Go back and try and find A SINGLE time I have not said our earthen flesh dies. 

Post after post after post I have said that body 1 dies and body 2 is raised and WE NEVER RETURN FOR A RESURRECTED BODY.  It is THE DEAD that are raised up, NOT THOSE WHO NEVER DIE because those who never die can not be amongst the dead.  

Never not once have I said anything else. 

 

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How different from what you wrote here:

Since BELIEVERS NEVER DIE,

it is impossible to be AMONGST THE DEAD THAT RISE when Christ returns. 

Are you ready to admit that Jesus was speaking of spiritual death here?

"John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"

Perhaps we need to define our terms: There are THREE kinds of death found in the bible:

1. Physical death where the human heart stops beating and the human spirit with the soul (mind, will, emotions, memories etc) leave the dead human body.

2. Spiritual death: defined as being separated from God. NOT born again. The state every human being is in when they reach the age where God will hold them accountable and then they sin. At that time their name is blotted out.

3. Eternal death. This comes when a human is cast into the lake of fire.

Can you agree here?

There is death of the unbeliever whose bodies and soul go to the grave and hell.  

There is the death of the believer who flesh goes to the grave but whose spirit/soul and spiritual body go to heaven. 

There is the 2nd death in the LOF of the spiritual body and the soul which only GOD can cause

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Truthfully, I have never heard of such a thing. Did Paul ever speak of the human spirit as a "body?"

Actually, we have our physical body, but on the day of the rapture we will have our body changed into a resurrection body. I guess that could be "two bodies" but just not at the same time. 

 

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 
There is only ONE more time Christ is coming and that is at the 2nd Advent.  ALL OF HIS SAINTS HAVE BEEN GOING TO HIM OVER THE PAST 2000 YEARS.  All in their own order 


Starting WAY back when Christ died and descended  and talked to all those  souls being held captive by death having that 'unforgiven sin' attached to them, then upon hearing the GOOD NEWS that a SAVIOUR was born and a NEW COVENANT enacted in which their sins could be washed clean BY HIS BLOOD, they repented, had their sins forgiven and NO LONGER COULD DEATH HOLD ONTO THEM.  NO SIN NO DEATH SO they were raised up and went to heaven.   CHRIST becoming the first fruits of them HIS BLOOD setting them free from death and hell and the grave.  

1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


AND EVER SINCE that day there have been 'pre trib raptures' EVERYDAY, all those,  who while they yet live come to BELIEVE IN HIM,   and so they never die and so never descend but are instead changing bodies and going to be with the Lord in heaven where He appears to them and takes them to the Father and then when He returns they return with Him.  

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please show us a scripture where the human spirit is a "body."

I can't because the SPIRIT/SOUL has a body.  When the spirit/soul 's earth body dies it rises up in the spiritual body.  So I don't believe the 'human spirit' IS a body at all.  Never have.  

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I could agree 100% with this if you wrote it this way: The earth body dies, which caused the human spirit to leave its physical body. The human spirit is invisible to natural eyes so is unseen. The spirit with the soul goes on living in heaven to return with Christ.

  Agree with what is written
 

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.



 

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

: -)))  It seems you are catching on!

Yes, I am starting to understand what I am fighting against, this will bring smiles to your face at some point....

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The two witnesses SHOW UP and begin their 1260 days just 3.5 days before the abomination that will divide the week. They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week when they are killed. They lay dead those 3.5 days and are resurrected (with all the other OT saints) "on the last day."

I believe the two witnesses show up for the last 3 1/2 years because when they are raised up, HEAVEN is seen, meaning the Lords Day has arrived.  

They show up RIGHT before Satan is kicked out of heaven and WOE TO THE EARTH. They are here the whole time Satan and his angels are.  

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think the earthquake when they were raised the the same earthquake we read about at the 7th vial that ends the week.

SO WE AGREE!!!

 

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

First, they will be hunted down like animals"

Rev, 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Will they?  

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

So you can see that if the 'CHURCH' is prepared and HAS KNOWLEDGE they just have to hunker down and wait it out and not be deceived and not take the mark of the beast for AN HOUR.  

BECAUSE GOD DOES HAVE A REMNANT WILLING TO STAND AND FIGHT AND BE PUT ON TRIAL AND ALLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT TO SPEAK THROUGH THEM DURING THEIR TRIALS.  

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

GODS VERY ELECT.  Gods PRE ORDAINED.  At least that is how I read it.  


THE DEAD who resurrect are those who HAVE NOT BEEN SAVED, HAVE NOT BEEN JUDGED, HAVE NOT HEARD GODS TRUTH.  They are just and unjust but no wicked.  The wicked are given up after the dead stand in judgment.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am SO HAPPY you now agree that a born again person can DIE and be DEAD.  Since they died "in Christ" they are now the dead "In Christ."

Just their earthen vessel.  The spirit/soul/spiritual body keeps on living and goes to be with the Lord.  

The flesh dies.  Time and again I have said it.  Maybe you need to have a conversation with one person at a time to keep it straight.  You keep saying I say things I never say.  

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The born again human spirit certainly will live in heaven until Jesus comes to call up the church - pretrib. I don't believe the bible ever says the human spirit is a BODY or has a BODY.

I don't believe the bible ever says the human spirit is a body or has a body the first time I ever heard those words came from you so I don't know what you are talking about

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [These are those who died previously, their body went to the grave, and their spirits went to be with Jesus. Since they were born again, Paul calls them the dead in Christ. They DIED being "In Christ."

It seems then, Paul disagrees with you.

Again, the DEAD in Christ are the DEAD not those who NEVER DIE being renamed 'the dead'.  The dead are the dead and Christ is the Lord of the living and the dead.  

Again, it is that pre trib that holds you back from seeing what is written.  

Look, you are rationalizing the dead to be those who never die because they are 'in Christ'.  



There is a chance you will understand this, 
In 1000 years from the time the 'dead' are raised up they come to judgment and some will receive the 'eternal life'.  They were dead having never come to faith while in their earth bodies but the become spiritually alive at that next judgment and since they receive eternal life they ARE in Christ.