I am not understanding free will, I think!

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, Heaven_Bound said:

Which is why knowing that (John 3:16) God sent Christ to die for [ALL Whosoever Believes] literally means God grants every human to come to Christ.  Sadly, only a few of us will accept.  Every human born is predestined to come to Christ.   But Free Will dictates who will Come and who will Deny.   This is why Judgement Day is Fair and Just.   God is judging based off humans decision to Accept God or to Deny God.

About predestination, I would like to add another thought and view, if I may, on the way I picture the books (records).

We are saved or not; there is no middle ground like purgatory. Official incontrovertible records (books) of our entire lives are presented. At the Great White Throne judgment, the official documents are opened. Those that rejected the Lord and Salvation find that their name was erased, wiped away, eliminated (blotted out) from the Book of Life.  

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Blot out = exaleíphō, from G1537 and G218; to smear out, i.e., obliterate, erase, (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin):—blot out, wipe away, eliminate.

To blot out, erase, eliminate, and wipe away the person’s name has first to be there.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

By default (predestined), I reason and suspect every person’s name is written in the Book of Life in the beginning. Based on free will, faith, belief, and trust, the acceptance, or rejection of the free gift of Salvation,  decides if a name is erased and eliminated, blotted out.

[Not me]

40 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

I think a lost soul can hear the word of God and choose to believe it, then God does the rest.

This here is the all of everything when it comes salvation, for He choose to save those that believe…

Be blessed in the heart that would believe one can be saved…

A fellow follower, Not me 

[Not me]

1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

I think a lost soul can hear the word of God and choose to believe it, then God does the rest.

But not only the all of everything when it comes to salvation, it is also the the of everything when it comes to the growing in Him…

Be so very blessed in that growing, Not me 

[JohnD]

19 hours ago, angeleyesGBU said:

I was just reading a daily reading in the Bible 365 Club here, and something in the book of John, caught me by surprise. I made a comment there, but I can see that there is not a lot of participation there, so I copied what I said there, for you consideration and thoughts here, as follows.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Interesting, I was just discussing with someone about this with someone yesterday, or at least something related to this. We were talking about what free will means. I know that I have free will, at least I was thinking I have free will. Just reading the verses above makes me realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

That verse hit me like a ton of bricks! How have I failed to notice it before? Apparently I admit I have some confusion now, I need to study more. As a church affiliated teacher at a Christian high school who teaches Bible for a living, I need to be better informed!

What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation,  that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something.

If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

The statement is only attributing the ultimate decision and authority to the Father. It is not meant to exclude anyone.

The will of the LORD is that all men (and women) be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

The most familiar John 3:16 passage is addressed to whosoever will.

1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2 do not establish universal salvation but it does establish salvation is available to all mankind

contingent on John 3:18. 

We do have free will enough to choose to be saved or not. But even that ability is given to us (Ephesians 2:8) the gift of God is to be able to believe.

[JohnD]

The thing to remember is that we finite beings with finite intelligence are

communing with infinite intelligence.

We cannot forget God knows everything and always has.

[Alive]

The scriptures are crystal clear on this issue of how 'saving faith comes'.

I think of the following scripture as being pivot points or anchors that help to place others in a proper context. There are many more citing 'election' being chosen and for-ordination and those are equally clear wording.

Many scriptures used to try and leverage a doctrine that salvation is initialized by the effort (will) of man in choosing, do not say that. An example is 'all that believe' or 'all that come to me (or Him), etc.--do not address who did what first.

The point is that fallen man is so corrupt that God must do a work in a man--initializing that path to Christ.

John 1:13 (NKJVS) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44 (NKJVS) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom. 3:10 (NKJVS)   As it is written:  “There is none righteous, no, not one;

11  There is none who understands;  There is none who seeks after God.

12  They have all turned aside;  They have together become unprofitable;  There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Paul quotes Psalm 14 and 53--where the same words are written twice for emphasis.

Both what Jesus said and what Paul wrote for the saints quoting Psalms--are clear unambiguous language.

I suggest that all other scriptures be read with these in mind.

Election and God's choosing is seen from Genesis to Rev.

[OneLight]

33 minutes ago, Alive said:

The scriptures are crystal clear on this issue of how 'saving faith comes'.

I think of the following scripture as being pivot points or anchors that help to place others in a proper context. There are many more citing 'election' being chosen and for-ordination and those are equally clear wording.

Many scriptures used to try and leverage a doctrine that salvation is initialized by the effort (will) of man in choosing, do not say that. An example is 'all that believe' or 'all that come to me (or Him), etc.--do not address who did what first.

The point is that fallen man is so corrupt that God must do a work in a man--initializing that path to Christ.

John 1:13 (NKJVS) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44 (NKJVS) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom. 3:10 (NKJVS)   As it is written:  “There is none righteous, no, not one;

11  There is none who understands;  There is none who seeks after God.

12  They have all turned aside;  They have together become unprofitable;  There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Paul quotes Psalm 14 and 53--where the same words are written twice for emphasis.

Both what Jesus said and what Paul wrote for the saints quoting Psalms--are clear unambiguous language.

I suggest that all other scriptures be read with these in mind.

Election and God's choosing is seen from Genesis to Rev.

Over the many years that I've had this discussion here, I can't remember anyone saying that man began the process toward salvation.  I have heard it said over and over that God calls everyone, but not everyone responds positivity to His call.  Most, in fact, will reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit and ignore His calling to repent and follow Him.  I have also heard that man cannot seek God for he is wicked to the core and wants nothing to do with God, by nature, and it is only because God chose them that they are saved.  I see no love in the latter example.

What is so hard, and why it is so hard, to realize that God wants all to accept Him?  That question always baffles me as He is a loving God who created all things.  He sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone.  The problem is, and always has been, not everyone will accept God.  They love darkness rather than light.

Nothing is taken away from God when you realize that we do have a choice to make when He calls.

[Alive]

11 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Over the many years that I've had this discussion here, I can't remember anyone saying that man began the process toward salvation.  I have heard it said over and over that God calls everyone, but not everyone responds positivity to His call.  Most, in fact, will reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit and ignore His calling to repent and follow Him.  I have also heard that man cannot seek God for he is wicked to the core and wants nothing to do with God, by nature, and it is only because God chose them that they are saved.  I see no love in the latter example.

What is so hard, and why it is so hard, to realize that God wants all to accept Him?  That question always baffles me as He is a loving God who created all things.  He sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone.  The problem is, and always has been, not everyone will accept God.  They love darkness rather than light.

Nothing is taken away from God when you realize that we do have a choice to make when He calls.

We all hope to understand and as brethren, we endeaver to help each other.

As do you, I know the objections from either camp.

I am not going to change anyone's mind--that is up to God.

I post so lurkers and fence sitters have an opportunity.

What do we do with the language of 'election' and foreordination?

All of the clear example of God's clear choosing in the OT?

Abraham--our father?

Honestly--the danger I see in man taking credit for His part, by his own choosing appeals to pride and is a seed of sorts, that germinates.

One's that say, oh yes, by Grace--but I had to make the choice to receive that Grace==puts man in the drivers seat and make him autonomous.

Only God is autonomous.

God did not leave His 'eternal purpose' to the vagaries of fallen man. Instead, He chose by His own will and purpose, to 'elect', to choose some from out of the mass of humanity. The rest perish, after enjoying the Grace of God for living a life on this beautiful planet. They live as they please (to an extent) and then simply die--twice dead. The 'elect; are Gifted with eternal  Life, 'In Christ'.

John 1:13 (NKJVS) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Crystal clear--if we can see and not holding fastly, to claiming it is our part that is vital. Subtle--it is not.

John 6:44 (NKJVS) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Draws:

G1670   ἑλκύω   helkuo   8x  

to drag (literally or figuratively): — draw. Jn. 6:44; Acts 16:19; Jas. 2:6

 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

We all hope to understand and as brethren, we endeaver to help each other.

As do you, I know the objections from either camp.

I am not going to change anyone's mind--that is up to God.

I post so lurkers and fence sitters have an opportunity.

The same reason why others post, I presume.  All we can do is ensure His words are spoken in its fullness and allow the Holy Spirit to do His job.

1 hour ago, Alive said:

What do we do with the language of 'election' and foreordination?

Do the same as we do with foreknowledge, accept it for what it means and not try to change the meanings.  By understanding that God looked down through time and knew who would accept Christ and who would not, we have the elect and foreordained because of His foreknowledge.

1 hour ago, Alive said:

All of the clear example of God's clear choosing in the OT?

Abraham--our father?

Don't you believe God knew their hearts as well?

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Honestly--the danger I see in man taking credit for His part, by his own choosing appeals to pride and is a seed of sorts, that germinates.

How can anyone take credit for God drawing us to Him?  I never understood why this keeps returning into every conversation about this subject.  What pride can there be when it is realized that it is God doing the calling and drawing, not us?  Another fear tactic.  You may as well say that if you accept salvation and not reject it, you are replacing what Jesus did on the cross because we said Yes to His calling.  A lie straight out of the pit of hell, if you ask me, and a sure way to cause doubt in anyone's heart and mind if they are not solid in their relationship with God.  We are in a relationship where we can follow Him who loves us enough to make a way back to Him, not a dictatorship where we have no choice in the matter.

1 hour ago, Alive said:

One's that say, oh yes, by Grace--but I had to make the choice to receive that Grace==puts man in the drivers seat and make him autonomous.

There is that lie once again.  The only ones who are autonomous are those who reject God.  What part of a relationship are you not getting?

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Only God is autonomous.

God did not leave His 'eternal purpose' to the vagaries of fallen man. Instead, He chose by His own will and purpose, to 'elect', to choose some from out of the mass of humanity. The rest perish, after enjoying the Grace of God for living a life on this beautiful planet. They live as they please (to an extent) and then simply die--twice dead. The 'elect; are Gifted with eternal  Life, 'In Christ'.

John 1:13 (NKJVS) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Crystal clear--if we can see and not holding fastly, to claiming it is our part that is vital. Subtle--it is not.

John 6:44 (NKJVS) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Draws:

G1670   ἑλκύω   helkuo   8x  

to drag (literally or figuratively): — draw. Jn. 6:44; Acts 16:19; Jas. 2:6

 

Do you really think people believe that God would not know what would happen when He sent His Son to die for us?  Sure sounds like you do from your first sentence above.  That is just a slap in the face to those who do believe He loves us enough to allow us to choose.

As for John 1:10-13, we do clearly see that the world rejected Jesus, but a few accepted Him and were born again.  Nothing false about that, is there?  Something simple for you to think about.  You fell in a river and are headed for a waterfall, where death awaits you if you go over the edge.  A man witness this and rush to offer you their hand so to pull you out of the water.  You have a choice to make.  If you reject the offer, you die.  If you accept the offer, you are safe.  Once safe, do you think to yourself "I'm sure glad I decided to grab that mans arm" or do you thank the one who saved you and take no credit for the actions of the man?  Even a child would understand this ...

As for draws, what I see is more than what you posted.   It simply states "To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force, as in "suro" (4951), used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him.  Your definition is more in the line of suro, which means "To draw, drag, whether of things or persons.  It involves a notion of violence.

You do realize that accepting salvation through Jesus is no different then accepting instructions from the Holy Spirit we do every single day?  You don't believe by obeying His direction, saying Yes to Him, that you are stealing anything from God do you?

 

[Dennis1209]

Additionally:

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The above is decision-making, freewill choice.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

As I’ve mentioned several times in past threads, there can be no love if it is forced. The Lord did not create predestined robots and favorite toys. All men (and women) created in His image are endowed with attributes: the ability and capacity to love and choose.

Not all church members and those who attend worship services are saved. Do Satan and his minions try to dissuade, tempt, and deceive all people not to accept the Lord? The Bible (or books) is addressed to the whole world, not just a select few. Why seek God if one thinks they are preordained and their fate sealed with no hope?

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

What, who, and how we choose to love and serve is a conscience independent choice and decision.

TULIP deprives the world of whosoever, Salvation, and any hope of eternal security but to an elect few.

Again, I cite King David as an example in 1 Samuel chapter twenty-three.