Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Selah7 said:

but, wait a minute … This is prophecy … The seventh trump hasn’t even sounded yet!  Right?

This is something I have discussed at great length under other topics. 

I think I make good case for when the 7th trump sounds in those topics. 

The answer is 'No, that's not right.'

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All I can say is all those who BELIEVE the 'living' are 'the dead' and resurrected out from the dead when Christ comes

WHILE AT THE SAME TIME saying they believe they were RESURRECTED to heaven when they died (just not in a body)

wont even ACKNOWLEDGE those two things are OPPOSITE of each other.  EITHER we are raised up when we die, or we are raised up when Christ returns.  

There is NOTHING written that says we are raised up TWICE*.  There is nothing written that says we are raised up WITHOUT A BODY.  Only the words of MAN say such things.  

This is the very line of thought that raises questions for me.

Are you going to start a topic?

I'll be there. 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

someone who never dies CAN'T BE DEAD SO CAN'T EVEN BE AMONG THE DEAD THAT RISE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS.  BUT not one person here will speak of it.  Not one person will acknowledge it as a problem.  Not one person here will give so much as a verse

This is wrong. I'm one person who has asked to discuss this under a topic all it's own. It's a topic deserving of it's own thread so it doesn't get lost. It's a topic that needs it's own focus so we can really dig into it. 

IMO.

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Ask yourself, how does Eternal damnation change the 2nd death into eternal life in torment????   by MAKING A DOCTRINE out of a word NOT only making null and void the word DEATH but many of the words of God.  Things like that happen all over the place.

Sure would make for an interesting discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

From what I have gathered, the INTENT of this thread is to find out WHO is special enough to rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years, and the aim is to do that with the 1st resurrection being 'the dividing line'.  

This is what the Bible says about "who".

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

2 Tim 2:12 -  if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us (the privilege of reigning with Him);

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Freegrace

The 1st resurrection is not the be all and end all.  It's a new beginning and a time for restoration on Israel and the nations.  This is the 1000 year of rest.  Rest from Satan who is locked up, and cannot interfere, so the nations can heal.

The first resurrection is for all believers.  1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Obviously, EVERY believer "belongs to Him" and this verse says plainly that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" a direct reference to the Second Advent.

Then, in Rev 20:4-6 we read about trib martyrs being resurrected in the FIRST resurrection.  Confirmation of 1 Cor 15:23.

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Ecclesiastes 7:8   Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

Before we get to the very end of God's plan, there are stages to go through, all for the benefit of Israel and the gentiles.

Rev 20 is a good summary of God's plan "to the very end".

9 hours ago, Sister said:

The bible is very clear in old testament prophecies about what is to come during that time.  If Israel are having children and multiplying during the millennium, then it makes sense that they are not spirit.  If they are not spirit, then they have not taken part in the first resurrection - which is why there is a second resurrection.

The second resurrection will be 1,000 years after the first, per Rev 20:4-6.  And the Bible is clear that there are only 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  By the end of the MK, ALL unbelievers will have been killed.  And then resurrected back into their mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment, and then cast into the LOF, which is also called the "second death".  Becuase their resurrected but still mortal body will DIE AGAIN.

9 hours ago, Sister said:

So the kingdom of God on earth will consist of the mortal and the immortal.  The mortal will join the immortal in the 2nd resurrection.  And this is the finished work Christ will present to his Father.  All that he has converted and healed and washed clean.

The MK will certainly include the mortals and immortals.  The mortals will be all the surviving unbelievers from the Tribulation.  The immortals will be all believers, who were resurrected "when He comes" back at the Second Advent. 

And the immortals will be reigning with, or serving the King during the MK.

There is no indication that there will be any mortal believers in the MK.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Ok. Since you choose "protos" in this case to be defined  as essentially "choicest" we should look at the technical aspect.

The KJV translates Strong's G4413 in the following manner: first (84x), chief (9x), first day (2x), former (2x), miscellaneous (7x).

first in time or place

in any succession of things or persons

first in rank

influence, honour

chief

principal

first, at the first

†πρῶτος prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former

Exactly. The context is crucial. I would say it's 1st in the context of the two resurrections depicted in Rev 20. Obviously it is the 1st since it's before the 2nd; but only within that context. 

It's not the first of all time. 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Below is the word that is referred to above. But first I'll continue with "protos."

β. with the article: (ὁ (ἡ, τό) πρῶτος (πρώτη, πρῶτον), in a series which is so complete, either in fact or in thought, that other members are conceived of as following the first in regular order; as..... (a list of scripture references among which is) : Revelation 20:5, 6

Yes. The nuance that seals the deal. It's the 1st at that time in the set of a profound, important series. In this case of which there are but two.

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

2. first in rank, influence, honor; chief; principal: without the article, and absolutely, πρῶτος chief:...... (this section excludes Rev 20:5, 6) 

Now to the word that protos is a contraction of (G4253)

The KJV translates Strong's G4253 in the following manner: before (44x), above (2x), above ... ago (1x), or ever (1x).

before

πρό pró, pro; a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:—above, ago, before, or ever.

So is it figurative? No. It is directly tied to its context pertaining another resurrection and SECOND death.

Totally agree.

 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

It is worth noting that all previous instances in scripture of someone being raised to life, excluding Jesus, thus far in history (two witnesses are future) have the element of another person involved. This is in contrast to the first resurrection.

I don't see that with Tabitha or Lazarus. Maybe I'm missing your point. 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Mat 27 has doubtful grounds as being a resurrection.

You mean this?

"52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

Maybe the word resurrection isn't used here but the circumstances are exactly the same as Jesus' resurrection: the tomb was opened and His body raised from the dead. It's not doubtful, it's an exact replica.

 

In any case, Rev 7 and 20 depict a large group with a narrow definition. Both must be considered in the investigation and added to the totality of evidence. 

'Coming out of GT' and 'victorious over the beast' defines 'the dead in Christ' in the context of Jesus return and the gathering. 

[Selah7]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Selah7.

You're right that there is only one First (General) Resurrection. However, there no difference between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the "soul" to immortality.

See, in today's jargon, we use the word "soul" for an "immaterial part of a human being." But, that is NOT what was meant by the Hebrew and Greek words translated "soul!"

Genesis 2:7 says,

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew of this verse is ...

וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃

And, it is transliterated as ...

7 Vayyiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipach b'apaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam lnefesh chayyaah:

A word-for-word translation is ...

7 Vayyiytser = 7 And-made
YHWH = YHWH; the LORD
'Elohiym = God
'et- = (next word is the direct object)
haa'aadaam = the-red-[man]
`aafaar = of-dust
min- = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground]
vayyipach = and-puffed
b'apaayow = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayyiym = of-living-things
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-red-[man]
lnefesh = to/into-a-breathing-creature
chayyaah: = living:

Stringing it all together, it becomes ...

7 And-made YHWH; the LORD God (next word is the direct object) the-red-[man] of-dust from the-red-[ground] and-puffed in-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-things and-became the-red-[man] to/into-a-breathing-creature living:

Putting it more into English word order, we get ...

7 And YHWH God made the red man of dust from the red ground and puffed in his nostrils a puff of living things and the red man became into a living breathing creature.

It's important at this point that one understands the meaning of the word translated "soul" ("breathing creature").

Here's Strong's listing in the Hebrew Dictionary:

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naphash; properly, A BREATHING CREATURE, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; TO BREATHE; passively, TO BE BREATHED UPON, i.e. (figuratively) REFRESHED (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Genesis 2:7 in part is quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Greek of this passage is ...

45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται, Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν. ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν.

Transliterated this becomes ...

45 houtoo kai gegraptai, Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan. Ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.

45 houtoo = 45 So/in this way
kai = and/also
gegraptai, = it-is-written,
Egeneto = Was-made
ho = the
prootos = first
anthroopos = man
Adam = Adam
eis = into
psucheen = a-breathing-creature
zoosan. = living.
Ho = The
eschatos = last
Adam = Adam
eis = into
pneuma = a-breath
zoo-opoioun. = life-making.

Stringing it all together, we get ...

45 So/in this way and/also it-is-written, Was-made the first man Adam into a-breathing-creature living. The last Adam into a-breath life-making.

And, putting it more into English word order, we get ...

45 And in this way it is written,

"The (first) man (Adam) was made into a living, breathing creature."

The last Adam into a life-making breath.

If one looks up the word "psucheen," the accusative, feminine, singular form of "psuchee," one will find,

5590 psuchee (psuche) ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo (psucho); breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zooee (zoe), which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay):
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

And, this word comes from ...

5594 psuchoo (psucho) ψύχω (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo (pneo), which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer (aer), which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
-- wax cold.

So, relationally speaking,

psuchee : nefesh :: pneuma : ruwach :: zooee : chay. And thus, psuchee means more than just "breath" and actually, like nefesh, means "breathing creature."

Thus, this later explanation of the words, particularly of "psuchee," by Strong's writer, didn't take this into consideration in his definition! However, Paul knew that "psuchee" translated "nefesh" into the Greek, and he KNEW what the Hebrew word "nefesh" meant!

The bottom line is this: the word "soul," whether Old Testament Hebrew or New Testament Greek, means a "breathing creature!"

So, how can there be a difference between 'the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the "breathing creature" to immortality'?

Thank you for the great study on the soul, Retrobyter.  My intent, though, was to point out something else—the difference between the resurrection of the body (soul) to incorruptibility and the resurrection of the soul to immortality.

1 Cor. 15:53 
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Incorruptibility applies to everyone that dies, both the good and the bad, when we are “raised up” or “changed” from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies; in other words, from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit.  

But Immortality applies only to the saints/Elect!  It is a special resurrection to eternal life!  For an eternity!  This is the First Resurrection!

The reason I’m expounding on this topic is because there seems to be much confusion regarding this, and many folks don’t understand why the FIRST Resurrection is called FIRST since there are many resurrections.  

I hope what I’ve written above makes sense.    - Selah 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Selah7

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This is something I have discussed at great length under other topics. 

I think I make good case for when the 7th trump sounds in those topics. 

The answer is 'No, that's not right.'

 

What’s not right? 

[Diaste]

20 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

What’s not right? 

That the 7th trump hasn't sounded. It sounds with the 6th seal.