Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Put everyone to sleep and wake them up at the same time no wiser than they were at the death of their flesh, not knowing anything more than the 'generation' in which they lived

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it."

Wisdom is ambiguous. 

I hear the scriptures tell me to get understanding. 

Again, how does one know a straight line without knowing a crooked line?

Your argument doesn't address the facts. 

"So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Not all from all time.

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Not all from all time.

"The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete"

After the 1000 years.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IF I was using MY WORDS AND THOUGHTs I would agree.  But what I am putting forth are the WORDS OF THE LORD.  

YOU are the one making the assertion that THOSE WHO NEVER DIE are in fact THE DEAD.  

I am asking you to SHOW HOW ONE GOES FROM NEVER DIE TO DEAD.  

AS MY assertion is WE NEVER DIE so can't be THE DEAD.  

"

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. 

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

"at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, "

Sure they never die. After they are raised at the last trump. 

 

 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE CAME BEFORE THE NEW COVENANT WAS BROUGHT FORTH. 

 

So how is it YOU ARE APPLYING THEM TO THE NEW COVENANT?  

Those under the law were NEVER TOLD THEY WOULD NEVER DIE.  The law of sin and death 

is what MADE THEM A PART OF THE DEAD.  


Under the NEW COVENANT THEY NEVER DIE.  

How is it this is not being DEALT WITH?   It's like TALKING TO THOSE who don't know that GOD separated the nation of Israel into 2 nations.  WE CAN'T apply

the promises and prophecies given to the Northen nation to the Southern nation and EXPECT A SINGLE BIT OF TRUTH to come from it.  The ONLY  thing that happens when we do is never ending CONFUSION

So this is NO DIFFERENT.  We have to rightly divide. 

Applying the OLD COVENTANT laws to those under the NEW COVENANT will NEVER WORK.  If it did there would have been no need for a new one.  

THEY DIED under the OLD.  WE DON'T under the new.  

Below is the passage about the change. It happens at the last trump, not before.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 

52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound,

the dead will be raised imperishable,

and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”h

Clearly this is a last trump action, and only then.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How?  by taking what is written as what is meant?  

Those who die follow Him  THAT IS WRITTEN

The LIVING shall not precede the dead THAT IS WRITTEN. 

so those who died before the two witnesses PRECEEDED the two witnesses by way of WHAT IS WRITTEN because those who died had ALREADY FOLLOWED HIM before the two witnesses were killed


HOW IS THAT 'MISCONSTRUING' SCRITPURES?  what personal perception do I have that that would cover?

 

ME ASSUME?  THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.  

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If the body produces the seed and God gives every seed a body, then how can we raise up NOT in a body?



So, all you need to produce is 

It is sown a natural body, that ceases to be a 'being', and a spirit is raised up and then

It is sown a SPIRIT come down from heaven that is sown, then,  it is raised a spiritual body

aka Yea, hath God said  


 Why would GOD who will change us in the twinkle of an eye, resort to the way a seed grows in the earth?   But I guess if one is searching for excuses...to back up a doctrine more important that what is written...so be it.  

Do you have these discussions with God?  Because when you do, you are not going to be any less the you than you are right now.  As we have born the image...we will bear the image and the things done in this body aka WHO WE ARE WILL STILL BE WHO WE ARE. 




And it isn't what WE THINK or assume or conclude that keeps us alive

3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Maybe this will help

So when God asks me 'why did you teach you were raised up in a spiritual body',

I am going to point to 1 Cor 15 and say it is written

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 

AND ALSO

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


And I am going to point to 

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. RV 22

AND if He lets me say anything else I am going to point to
 

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. MK 12

Maybe, if you just show me what Scriptures you will be giving God for what you believe, I will be able to understand what you are believing to be Gods truth. 

Who knows, maybe that will show us just where the 'misconstruing' is taking place.  

Because you don't look at the entire passage to see 'When' the change occurs to whom:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,

but we will all be changed— 

52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”h

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,

and with the trumpet of God,

and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise"

The dead are dead, They are dead in Christ, and they are raised at the last trump. 

That's what's written.

 

[Selah7]

30 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This clearly ties in with most believers appearing at the GWT.

In Rev 7 the group about the throne has already been judged.

In Rev 20:4 that group live and reigns with Christ for 1000 years and has already been judged.

All the rest, maybe you and I, wait for 1000 years. 

Consider the Election.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

- Romans 8:28-30,33

 

[Diaste]

Just now, Selah7 said:

Consider the Election.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

- Romans 8:28-30,33

 

I agree. When does all this manifest? Here it's the fact of it all. 

But I think this is the nature of the election and the process, not when it's finally realized.

[Selah7]

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

- Matthew 24:30-31

"And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

- Mark 13:27 (NKJV)

So we have the Tribulation, the 7th trumpet, then the gathering of the Elect.  

 

[farouk]

10 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

- Matthew 24:30-31

"And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

- Mark 13:27 (NKJV)

So we have the Tribulation, the 7th trumpet, then the gathering of the Elect.  

 

@Selah7 Great verses there. I think they relate to tribulation saints, after the church has gone. (Matthew 24.21 speaks of surrounding conditions in relation to a unique future event, the great tribulation.)

[Selah7]

I believe that 1 Thessalonians is very clear—the “changing” of the saints who are alive will follow—not precede—the the dead in Christ who are already with Him.  I believe all this happens pretty much at the same time, or only moments apart—a single event—the first resurrection.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 

[farouk]

9 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

I believe that 1 Thessalonians is very clear—the “changing” of the saints who are alive will follow—not precede—the the dead in Christ who are already with Him.  I believe all this happens pretty much at the same time, or only moments apart—a single event—the first resurrection.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 

Great passage there........(The way it is worded, it's rather distinct from what is in view in Matthew 24).

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

Consider the Election.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

- Romans 8:28-30,33

 

@Selah7 What a tremendous chapter! What is in view most definitely cannot be reduced to a ritualistic formula that so many ppl seem to put faith in.