Paul’s Gospel

[Guest]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You address an important point. I don't get the chance to bounce ideas off capable scholars much, so if you can, could you give your views of this.

The best two scholars I've discovered in nearly 50 yrs. of study and research are from the 1600-1700's (John Gill and Albert Barnes). Their advantage was that they were prior to the rise of false teachings in the early 1900's.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

My question is, if our Lord Jesus is born by this Spirit and is divine, how are we less than divine after being born of this same Spirit?

The most significant issue concerning deity is that it only relates to the Trinity, because They never has a beginning, unlike all other things. Deity is an attribute only of a Creator. Greek 'theios': 

1. Spoken of the only and true God, trinity

a) of Christ

b) Holy Spirit

c) the Father

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2304/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

We were born in a sinful nature. The Lord Jesus has only a divine nature from baby to ascension. His birth of the Spirit was only related to His physical body, not His spirit and nature, which have been eternal and unchangeable. Our rebirth of the Spirit is not related to the body but the spirit, soul and nature.

Edited June 14, 2022 by WordSword

[WilliamL]

28 minutes ago, WordSword said:

His birth of the Spirit was only related to His physical body...

Correction: it was only related to His soul [nephesh/psuche], not His flesh. 

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The difference between Jesus and us is our fathers: His was God, and ours was Adam. So Jesus' nature was pure from its origin as a Son of God. Whereas we must be "adopted" into the God-family. Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5

An adoption that is not fulfilled until our bodies are transfigured at the Parousia.

 

13 hours ago, WordSword said:

The best two scholars I've discovered in nearly 50 yrs. of study and research are from the 1600-1700's (John Gill and Albert Barnes). Their advantage was that they were prior to the rise of false teachings in the early 1900's.

The most significant issue concerning deity is that it only relates to the Trinity, because They never has a beginning, unlike all other things. Deity is an attribute only of a Creator. Greek 'theios': 

1. Spoken of the only and true God, trinity

a) of Christ

b) Holy Spirit

c) the Father

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2304/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

We were born in a sinful nature. The Lord Jesus has only a divine nature from baby to ascension. His birth of the Spirit was only related to His physical body, not His spirit and nature, which have been eternal and unchangeable. Our rebirth of the Spirit is not related to the body but the spirit, soul and nature.

 

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Correction: it was only related to His soul [nephesh/psuche], not His flesh. 

I think we are on the same page. I believe that Christ is, in all aspects, vastly superior to the rest of us. His humanity begins with the seed of the woman, so does ours. But then it stops, for the male part is not of Adam. Thus, He is God's "ONLY begotten Son". Thus, He possesses divinity from the womb. And if so, then His humanity takes on eternal aspects - like being "Slain from the foundation of the world", or "being before Abraham", or "being the Root of Jesse", or even being the "firstborn from the Creature".

But this view, correct as it is (in my opinion) causes some difficulties. What of Hebrews 2:16–17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people

It is not easy to uphold this verse, validate it and reconcile it with the scriptures that elevate the Person of Christ. Does the "all things" of the above verse mean really ALL things, or is it limited by the context?

[Dennis1209]

This is an interesting and thought-provoking thread, and it raises other theological questions trying to understand and answer with the complexities of our fallible, finite minds. Why do excellent scholars and theologians through the centuries have opposing hermeneutical views? Who is right and who is wrong?

God’s redemptive plan and His word are amazing, culminating in the revelation of Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul (apostle to the gentiles) was unique, given the privilege of revealing the hidden mysteries of the church and harpazo.

To better understand this discussion, I think we need to know where humanity was and what happened to understand the redemption story and adoption? It seems to do this; some questions need to be asked.

Precisely what does it mean to be created in the image of God? It cannot be a set of attributes, as we share some with the animal kingdom. After the fall and generationally, are we still God’s imagers?

What does it mean to be created a little lower than the angels? Is it strength, power, might, spiritually, flesh and blood, with souls?

Is the “tree of life” and twelve fruits literal, figurative, or both, representing Jesus and eternal life?

 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Correction: it was only related to His soul [nephesh/psuche], not His flesh. 

I see no need that Christ's soul needed any type work of the Spirit, seeing Christ's nature was always as His--divine (we might be discussing separate issues).

[Guest]

6 hours ago, WordSword said:

Sorry, accidental post!

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by WordSword

[Alive]

16 hours ago, WordSword said:

The best two scholars I've discovered in nearly 50 yrs. of study and research are from the 1600-1700's (John Gill and Albert Barnes). Their advantage was that they were prior to the rise of false teachings in the early 1900's.

The most significant issue concerning deity is that it only relates to the Trinity, because They never has a beginning, unlike all other things. Deity is an attribute only of a Creator. Greek 'theios': 

1. Spoken of the only and true God, trinity

a) of Christ

b) Holy Spirit

c) the Father

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2304/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

We were born in a sinful nature. The Lord Jesus has only a divine nature from baby to ascension. His birth of the Spirit was only related to His physical body, not His spirit and nature, which have been eternal and unchangeable. Our rebirth of the Spirit is not related to the body but the spirit, soul and nature.

I think you might enjoy Bonar’s Way of Peace.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

This is an interesting and thought-provoking thread, and it raises other theological questions trying to understand and answer with the complexities of our fallible, finite minds. Why do excellent scholars and theologians through the centuries have opposing hermeneutical views? Who is right and who is wrong?

It is very taxing for the fallen man to admit his limitations - especially the very intelligent. I have watched very gifted men debate this issue with one result. If one is given the power of a defense lawyer and the opponent MUST answer yes or no, you can, in five minutes, get the bible student to be BOTH a Modalist and a Tritheist - if he answers honestly. Most intelligent men know this, and parry the questions without answering them. Let's try:

Is God the Father a Person with a personality - Yes! Is He God? - Yes! How many Gods are there? - One! Is Jesus a Person with a personality? - Yes! Is He God? - Yes! Then by the laws of mathematics you have two gods!

[WilliamL]

On 6/15/2022 at 3:34 AM, AdHoc said:

What of Hebrews 2:16–17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people

It is not easy to uphold this verse, validate it and reconcile it with the scriptures that elevate the Person of Christ. Does the "all things" of the above verse mean really ALL things, or is it limited by the context?

I think this passage can be explained by the statement that "Christ was fully God and fully human." Through his human mother, He was fully exposed to a sin nature:

Heb. 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin.

[WilliamL]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:07 AM, AdHoc said:

Is God the Father a Person with a personality - Yes! Is He God? - Yes! How many Gods are there? - One! Is Jesus a Person with a personality? - Yes! Is He God? - Yes! Then by the laws of mathematics you have two gods!

This type of reasoning is why Jews reject Christ as being God, and Mormons accept that there are "three Gods." (Father, Son, Spirit.)