A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[Montana Marv]

13 hours ago, branchesofHim said:

Good point. Consider the feasts of Israel in the timeline.

They give us insight.  But which year.  If it does not happen at a particular feast, we wait.

The ten virgins watched and waited, we must also.  For they did not know when the Bridegroom was to come.  Neither do we.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

17 hours ago, Keras said:

Those who pass the test to come; 1 Peter 4:12, will be with Jesus in His Millennium reign. Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 5:9-10

Jesus never said humans will go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

Then you missed the point of John 14:1-4.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

On 6/21/2022 at 3:41 PM, AdHoc said:

At death the spirit returns to God, the soul goes to Hades under the earth and the body rots back to the elements.

Only before the ascension. At the Ascension Paradise/Bosom of Abraham was removed from the center of the earth and taken to heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Only before the ascension. At the Ascension Paradise/Bosom of Abraham was removed from the center of the earth and taken to heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I know that many believe this. I have yet to find any evidence.

Two arguments are put forward to support this theory. The first is Ephesians 4:8 - "captivity was led captive". But if Hades, or Abraham's Bosom, was captivity, how could it be led captive? That would be the same as saying that Alkatraz was taken captive. But we have an example. Assyria led Israel captive. 130 years later Assyria in turn was led captive by Babylon. But neither the Israelites nor the Assyrians went anywhere. 70 years alter Persia defeated Babylon and the Jews in captivity went no where. Only the regime changed. In normal language caprivity being taken captive means the Boss changed, but the caprivity did not go anywhere. Then again, is heaven "captivity"? Should it not read "captivity was led liberty"?

The second argument that has any merit is 2nd Corinthians 12:1-4. There, Paul is raptured twice. the text is ...

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The first point is that verse 3 starts with a conjunction. The word "AND" is copulative, cumulative and sequential. It joins two different things, it can add another thing and it can set an order. Example; "The dynamite AND the fuse form a lethal combination AND detonate when ignited". Dynamite is one thing, a fuse is another, joined together they are lethal. AND will, in the sequence of putting the together and then igniting them, detonate. The grammar of the above text indicates that aul made a journey to the thrid heaven. "AND" made another journey to Paradise. the "AND" adds a journey and makes then sequential.

This is even better seen when the Greek word for "caught UP" is correctly rendered. the Greek word "harpazo" indicates movement bt does not give direction. Using the word "UP" was not warranted. It is correctly translated in Acts 8:39. Philip was "CAUGHT AWAY"! 2nd Corinthians 12:4 should not have the word "UP". Finally, we have an interesting hint. All through the Bible the Lord has given little or no information on the dead. Even some scholars say that "Hades means "hidden". Under the Law of Moses, contact with the dead meant the death penalty. Paul and John, both raptured to heaven, speak freely of what they saw. But Paul tells nothing of Hades and the dead, except to say it was "unlawful".

I judge that there is not a single bit of evidence that Paradise has moved. ALL indications are that it remains in Hades under the earth. The dead always "RISE".

[Montana Marv]

48 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The second argument that has any merit is 2nd Corinthians 12:1-4. There, Paul is raptured twice. the text is ...

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

If you don't believe what you just posted, I cannot say much to you.

This man was caught up or away to the 3rd heaven.  This same man was caught up or away to Paradise.  He heard inexpressible things there.  Where? 3rd heaven Paradise.  Now did Paul say ten years ago, or fourteen years ago this happened.  So where is Paradise now, the 3rd heaven.  Paul was precise in all he wrote.

Those in Paradise had no access to heaven until Christ Ascended on high.  They were captives there.  Why was Christ in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights according to Scripture.  To attend to the saints there.  He then led these captives in His train, bringing Paradise up to the 3rd heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If you don't believe what you just posted, I cannot say much to you.

This man was caught up or away to the 3rd heaven.  This same man was caught up or away to Paradise.  He heard inexpressible things there.  Where? 3rd heaven Paradise.  Now did Paul say ten years ago, or fourteen years ago this happened.  So where is Paradise now, the 3rd heaven.  Paul was precise in all he wrote.

Those in Paradise had no access to heaven until Christ Ascended on high.  They were captives there.  Why was Christ in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights according to Scripture.  To attend to the saints there.  He then led these captives in His train, bringing Paradise up to the 3rd heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Then we have dire situation for believers. In Acts 2, 50 days after Christ's resurrection, and 10 days after His ascension we have David dead and in Hades.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. .... 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in HADES ... 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

David, man after God's own heart, who did all that God commanded except in the matter of Bathsheba, who will be raised as king of Israel (Jer.30:9), who wrote extensively of Christ in the Psalms, has been left behind!

[Keras]

19 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Then you missed the point of John 14:1-4

That prophecy of Jesus refers to the new Jerusalem, to come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Nowhere is it said or even inferred, that we go to the new Jerusalem, or that it comes before Eternity. 

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

That prophecy of Jesus refers to the new Jerusalem, to come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Nowhere is it said or even inferred, that we go to the new Jerusalem, or that it comes before Eternity. 

New Jerusalem is not even mentioned or inferred anywhere in John 14.  Only that Jesus will be going to the Father, and that He Jesus will bring us to where He is, with the Father.  The 3rd heaven. Anything beyond that is pure speculation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. .... 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in HADES ... 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

You have the wrong perspective here.  True that David is both dead and buried, and his grave/sepulcher is still with us today.  v.34 - David saw what was in the future of things about Christ, and he David was not ascended yet.  This is about when David was alive in one of his psalms. You have read the verse backwards.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

On 6/19/2022 at 3:22 PM, Montana Marv said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. v. 14 - and the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us.

So the total of the Word (all Scripture) was established in the beginning.  Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21.  Now what does Matt 24:36 say - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. v. 42 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.  Continuing with Chp 25 - The Bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.  At midnight (the last hour) the cry rang out. Here is the Bridegroom, come out to meet Him.  25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you not know the day or hour.

So Scripture gives no precise date for the Rapture.  It says to Keep Watch.  It does not say or hint; Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Pre-wrath, or Post-trib.  Scripture does not refer to these dates.  Watch and be ready.  As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now.  Which is the only position which cannot be calculated.  Pre-trib.  One week from now, or one month or six months.

But Scripture says it is Post-trib, don't believe it, it is not there. No Scripture.  In the beginning was the Word, the full and total Word.  And Jesus, the Word, which is all Scripture states that only God the Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Bridegroom.  People get it into your head that this day and hour is not in Scripture.  Don't quote Scripture; ignorance can be bliss.  Yet the 5 foolish virgins went out to buy more oil and missed the Bridegroom. Did they have the mark of the beast on them so they could buy and sell, I think not. So it must happen before the mark of the beast is instituted. Yet Rev 5:6b - A quart of wheat for a days wage, and three quarts of barley for a days wage, and do not damage the oil and the wine.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  And v. 8b - They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  Nothing of the S. T. or B. judgements is like in the days of Noah.  The time of the mark of the beast is not like in the days of Noah.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Hi MM,

Actually Matt. 24: 30 refers to the Lord coming in great power and great glory to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious. The Lord, who is now at the right hand of the Father, in the Godhead does certainly know when He will come at that time.

As to the rapture, the catching away of the mature Body to meet the Lord in the air, we are told -

`...exhorting (encouraging and warning) one another, and so much the more as YOU SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

`you, brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

We, the Body of Christ are seeing the Day (of the LORD God Almighty in judgment) looming. We see the world in lawlessness, the forming of the final gentile Global Government, and the Russian Federation on the move.

However before the Day of the LORD judgments, the Body of Christ will be caught away. The Lord will have built His `called out ones,` and they will have come to the maturity of faith in knowing the truth of Christ, His character and His purposes. 

We don`t measure the Body of Christ by man`s public meetings, but know that the Lord is well able to mature His Body over the centuries and across the world in humans hearts looking to Him.

regards, Marilyn.