A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I understand that you hold a popular view. I am familiar with their arguments. In five years time you will have changed your mind. I present you my argument.

At death a man is torn apart. His spirit returns to God Who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). His body is laid on the surface of the earth to rot back to the elements (Gen.3:18). The man's soul, which is the man, goes to Hades. A dead man is naked and unclean (2nd Cor.5:1-5). In every single case in scripture, a man who went to heaven did so bodily. Enoch, Elijah, Christ,the Raptured etc. Every naked soul up to and including Jesus went to Hades.

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It is indeed a popular view but that is because it is the bible view. Perhaps in five years the pretrib rapture will have taken place and I will be in heaven.

I agree that at death, a human being is separated: the spirit with the soul (They are tied very tightly together) leave the dead body. Today where that human goes then depends on if they are born again. Paul made it clear that for a believer, if they (the spirit and soul) are absent from the body (death) they are present with the Lord.

Paul gave us a strong hint that the sould and spirit are tied very tightly together.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..."

I believe Paul proved that when He was stoned. I believe he died and his spirit and soul went up to the 3rd heaven.

Jesus also proved this with his story of the rich man and Lazarus. 

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His spirit returns to God Who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7)

This appears to say spirit, but the same Hebrew word also means breath. It is like a play on words: GOD gives us "breath." 

A wise professor and a bible college I was attending told us that if the Old Testament and the New Testament both included verses about the same theme, a wise student should filter the Old through the New. Why? Because the NEW is the OLD explained. In the New Testament, when a sinner dies, their spirit and soul go down to hell, but when a believer dies, their spirit and soul go up to where God lives.

Note what the disciple said when they saw Jesus walking on the water:  "And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear."

They did NOT say "it is a soul..." The human spirit is the LIFE of the human being. It is in the soulish area that makes every human different.

Even before Jesus rose from the dead, at the time of the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the spirits with the souls went to different places: the believer went to Abraham's Bosom, while the rich man went to the fire. 

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The man's soul, which is the man, goes to Hades.

This was half true before Christ rose from the dead. It is half truth because it is both the spirit (the life) AND the soul (mind, will, emotions) which leaves the body. (The breath goes back to God who gave it.)

The human spirit dwells in the realm of the spirit (Where God dwells) and with the human spirit a person can interface with God. The human soul interfaces with other humans in the natural realm. The human body is the house we live in for now.

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In every single case in scripture, a man who went to heaven did so bodily.

Paul didn't go bodily. His body was being stoned and was dead. But as Paul went up to heaven, he could not tell. Someone asked Jessie Duplantis if when he was in heaven, he was in body are spirit and he did not know - but He said, "I had the same suit on" that he was wearing in the hotel before he was called up. Gary L Wood (I have talked with him) knew he was in heaven in spirit only, because he knew he died in a terrible auto accident. (I believe his sister prayed him back to his body.)

Sorry, did not know it would paste the picture. I do hope you watch this video. I have heard Gary's testimony in person twice.  

We have today avaliable to us countless testimonies such as Gary's telling us that when a believer dies, they are escorted into heaven. Since Paul TOLD us this, why not believe Paul?

What did Paul write? "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Why is Paul bring them (their spirits with their souls) WITH HIM? The answer is simple: they are in heaven WITH HIM. So He brings their spirits (with their souls) down to join once again with their just resurrected bodies.

 

 

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

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1st Corinthians 15 is THE Chapter on resurrection. In the whole Chapter it speaks about "our BODY". We never get another body. We get a new body and a spiritual body in that it is not developed in the womb and made by the Holy Spirit (see also 2nd Cor.5:1-5). There is no case in the Bible where a person got a newly created body. Our Lord Jesus, Who has preeminence in all things, still had His wounds. 2,000 years later, when our Lord Jesus bursts through the cloud like lightening, the Tribes of the Land will see Who they "pierced".

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We never get another body.

What we DO get is a "changed" body. The resurrected old flesh and blood body gets "changed" into a resurrection body. I think we are in agreement here. Our new body will be a flesh and bone body. No more will the life be in the blood. 

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

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Resurrection is the process of a body being united with soul and spirit (1st Ki.17:22, Lk.8:55). The resurrection of the Christians occurs "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). The resurrection of Israel occurs after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). The resurrection of "the rest of the dead" is 1,000 years after Christ's return (Rev.20:5). The dead, in every case, "RISE". There is no record whatsoever of a disembodied man being in heaven. Paul and John did not know whether they went to heaven by vision or in the body, but they were alive in their bodies afterwards. The Christians are raised at THEIR last trumpet and the shout of God (1st Cor.15:52, 1st Thess.4:16). They RISE to the surface of the earth and meet the LIVING. "TOGETHER" they are caught up to the air and the clouds. In this way will the Lord bring the saints with Him.

Good job with chronology. I agree. The dead in Christ will be resurrected when He comes to the air, pretrib. The resurrection of the Old Testament saints will be "on the last day" of the 70th week, after the tribulation of those days. The resurrection of the rest, the unbelievers, will be after the 1000 years. Again I think we agree on these things.

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There is no record whatsoever of a disembodied man being in heaven.

Yes, indeed there is. Jesus brings people (in their spirit with soul) WITH HIM as He leaves heaven and descends down to the air to call up His church. Why did Paul write this? Because he also wrote that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And WHERE is the Lord now? In heaven. We have HUNDREDS of testimonies of believers who have died and visited heaven. Their stories agree with the scriptures. Why not then believe them?

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1 Thes. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

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2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise,

 

Paul gives away that he is talking about himself when He adds "I cannot tell..." He was "caught up" into paradise. Paul used the word harpazo. I think this is proof that a man without a body DID enter paradise.

Now we have TWO witnesses: Jesus bringing those who were asleep (in death) with Him and Paul being raptured up.

Then we have hundreds of testimonies of believers who have gone to heaven after death but were prayed back to their bodies that all agree with the written scriptures. I think this is good evidence to believe it.

 

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

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... To be with the Lord after death is stated in Psalm 139:7–8

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in SHEOL (Hades - Gk.), behold, thou art there.

This is speaking of the omnipresence of God. The subject is not death. It is about the greatness of God. Since God holds the very elements together, anywhere there is matter, there is God holding that matter together by the word of His power.

AGain the story of the rich man and Lazarus shows us that after death the human spirits are taken somewhere. They (the spirits of the deceased) don't get to just hang around.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is plainly stated that when one is with the Lord, one is "absent from the body". Thus, the statements in Acts 2:27-34 are simple, straightforward and without ambiguity. David died and went to Hades. His body lies rotted in a tomb in Jerusalem. Jesus died and went to Hades. God forbade His body to rot. BOTH were "absent from the body". After three days our Lord Jesus was released from Hades and took up the Body from the tomb. David was not one of the Old Testament saints resurrected in Matthew 27. He was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection. He is still without a body. He has NOT ascended to heaven. In Acts 15:14-16 the Holy Spirit says that David's House will be raised up again AFTER the Church is finished(completed). Since David wrote extensively about the Messiah he can be reckoned a Believer. If so, he will resurrected when Christ comes.

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David died and went to Hades. ... Jesus died and went to Hades. ... BOTH were "absent from the body"

I agree. But both died under the Old Covenant. We live under a new and better covenant. Today we we die, our direction is UP, not down.  Jesus will bring all the dead in Christ WITH HIM because they are their with Him today.

There are at least 30 English translations that have it as David "DID NOT" ascend into the heavens. It is speaking of the time of His death and shortly thereafter. Peter was emphasizing the point that David was not writing about himself, but rather about the coming Messiah.

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34 For it was not David who ascended into the heavens, but he himself says:

The Lord declared to my Lord,
‘Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’

 

We know David did not ascend into heaven when he died, because at that time every spirit absent from their body had to go DOWN. The price for sin had not yet been paid for. Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Perhaps you have another idea about the scripture that tells us Jesus led captivity captive. Many people take this out of context. The context is, " When he ascended up on high " that is when He led captivity captive. I believe that is when He took all the Old Testament saints out of Abraham's bosom and up to heaven.

It is OK if we do not agree on this.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree. But both died under the Old Covenant. We live under a new and better covenant. Today we we die, our direction is UP, not down.  Jesus will bring all the dead in Christ WITH HIM because they are their with Him today.

There are at least 30 English translations that have it as David "DID NOT" ascend into the heavens. It is speaking of the time of His death and shortly thereafter. Peter was emphasizing the point that David was not writing about himself, but rather about the coming Messiah.

We know David did not ascend into heaven when he died, because at that time every spirit absent from their body had to go DOWN. The price for sin had not yet been paid for. Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Perhaps you have another idea about the scripture that tells us Jesus led captivity captive. Many people take this out of context. The context is, " When he ascended up on high " that is when He led captivity captive. I believe that is when He took all the Old Testament saints out of Abraham's bosom and up to heaven.

It is OK if we do not agree on this.

You've taken a lot of time and thought to answer my posting - for which I thank you. And yes, it is almost always ok to disagree. It seems that we're about to repeat ourselves and that there is no change from our positions. Let's leave it at that.

Go well and God bless

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You've taken a lot of time and thought to answer my posting - for which I thank you. And yes, it is almost always ok to disagree. It seems that we're about to repeat ourselves and that there is no change from our positions. Let's leave it at that.

Go well and God bless

I'm quite sure, after we have seen the pearly gates and entered, we will have no disagreements! We are, after all, brothers in Christ.

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I'm quite sure, after we have seen the pearly gates and entered, we will have no disagreements! We are, after all, brothers in Christ.

Well .... the gates of pearl are Tribes of Israel. Are you getting to heaven through the Jews?  You don't have to answer ...

Go well

Edited June 25, 2022 by AdHoc
smileys corrupted

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Well .... the gates of pearl are Tribes of Israel. Are you getting to heaven through the Jews?  You don't have to answer ...

Go well

No one is getting in over the wall! And the gates are, without a doubt, guarded by angels. Since we all are grafted in to the Jewish tree of salvation, I will leave it up to God which gate.  ;-)

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi Sister,

I am assuming that you challenge me. I gladly answer. First, the verse is written in the past tense. That anyone "have come" would mean that the readers of Hebrew have also died and gone to heaven.

reading the context further on we see that those believers have NOT died.

`See that you do not refuse Him who speaks...` (Heb. 12: 25)