A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you have not found it yet, you are lost somewhere in the wrong scriptures. God is pretrib, so the rapture will be pretrib. 

You will closely note you didn't provide scripture in support of a pre-trib rapture, because there isn't any 

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

[AdHoc]

22 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

James was writing to "The Church" those who have the "Faith Of Jesus Christ"

"The Church" is the 12 tribes scattered abroad in James 1:1

James 2:1KJV

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

The overwhelming bulk of the Old Testament is written about Twelve Tribes that came from Jacob's loins. The New Testament tells me that the TWELVE Apostles that Christ chose, are sent to these TWELVE TRIBES - the CIRCUMCISION. These TWELVE TRIBES will exist when Christ returns and Christ, Son of David, will rule them. His Second in Command will be David (Jer.30:9) and each Tribe will have one Apostle sitting on his throne judging that Tribe (Matt.19:28, Lk.22:30).

James 1.1 says that James did his God-given duty to approach these Twelve Tribes - the CIRCUMCISION, with God's inspired message to them. These twelve Tribes are specifically those that were "SCATTERED". Being scattered was a temporal chastisement for breaking the Law of Moses. The prophets to the Twelve Tribes predict a restoration when Christ returns.

The Church
Was not revealed to the prophets of old
Did not come from Jacob's loins
The Church is ONE - not twelve
The Church's expression is one Church-one City, NOT occupying a  Land
The Church is not the CIRCUMCISION for circumcision is not required
The Church never occupied a Land called Canaan
The Church's fathers did not come out of Egypt
The Church has One Father - Israel has Twelve
The Church did not receive the Law of Moses
The Church is the "gathering of the called-out ones", NOT "the SCATTERING"
The Church is a Spiritual House. Israel is a physical household
The Church came out Christ's death. Israel came out of Isaac's loins
The Church is "brethren IN Christ" (Col.1.2). Israel is "brethren according to the flesh (Rom.9:3)
The Church is a Kingdom of Life. Israel is no Kingdom
The Church loves and embraces Jesus. Israel hate Him
The Church is commanded to forsake this world. Israel are rewarded with the things of this world
The Church is a New Man with no past. Israel has 4,000 years of history

May I suggest, as politely as possible, that Israel and the Church could not be more opposite.

 

[Keras]

The Church is Israel      

Just as the Gentile Ruth, an ancestor of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, could say to the Israelite Naomi: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God. Ruth 1:16, so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel. Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12-19, Galatians 3:29

That is: all genetic Jews in the church remain members of Judah or Benjamin, the tribes they were born into. Romans 11:1 And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel and so will be assigned into its tribes, as per: Ezekiel 47:21-23, Isaiah 66:21 and as seen by John in Revelation 7:9

  So the entire church represents the 12 tribes of Israel. This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved by the New Covenant, which is made only with the Israel of God. Hebrews 8:10

John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church. God knows who His people are, Amos 9:9, and every believer will be placed in the tribe suited to their abilities and characteristics. Revelation 7:9-14

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are ethnic Jews, Acts 22:3 or ethnic Gentiles, Romans 16:4b, have become spiritually-circumcised Israelites, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus. Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13

The books of James and Peter are addressed to the twelve tribes, which is the same as addressing people in the church, people with faith in Christ , James 1:3, that is: Christians, people who have been born again in Jesus and who anticipate His Return.

All those in the church, from every tribe, race, nation and language, are spiritually Abraham's seed, by their faith. Galatians 3:29 And Abraham's seed is Israel. Isaiah 41:8-10  So the entire church membership are Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

This literally means we are the ‘Overcomers for God’, or ‘God’s Victorious people’. Seen in each of the seven Church’s of Revelation and in Isaiah 56:1-8

 Not just the Jews in the church, but also the Gentiles in the church, are all spiritually Abraham's seed of promise as Isaac was and as Jesus is the one and only true Seed.  And so the peoples of the church, Jews and those from every race, nation and language, every faithful believing Christian is an heir of all the as yet, unfulfilled promises made by God to Israel in all of the Bible: Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14

 

Zechariah 8:7-8 The Lord says: I am going to rescue My people from wherever they are in the world and I will bring them back into the holy Land, to Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God in truth and righteousness.

The Prophesies are clear; it is a people that God foreknew whom He will rescue, redeem, restore and forgive their sins and misdeeds.  No other than the Northern tribes of the House of Israel, scattered among the nations and ‘lost’ to our knowledge, but not to God.  Now; they are the bulk of the faithful Christian peoples.                                   

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

Scripture is very clear, Jesus returns "Immeduately After The Tribulation"

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

That is in reference to the 2nd Coming not the Rapture.  Again where is the date ln Scripture which  reference the Bridegroom coming for the Bride. Tying two events together won't work. In the beginning was the Word. It states that only the Father knows. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[AdHoc]

45 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

"Yes" a man made fabricated fairy tale, John N. Darby 1830's, C.I. Scofield 1909 reference Bible, Lewis S. Chafer Dallas Theological and it's Alumni, Hal Lindsey, Tim LA Haye, J. Vernon McGee, Thomas Ice, Chuck Swindoll, David Jeremiah, Charles Ryrie, just to mention a few

Dispensationalism does nothing more than taket the second coming seen throughout scripture, and claim it's a pre-tribute rapture, with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 being a prime example

Jesus Is The Lord 

I'll put the case very briefly. The text is below for reference.

You have just stated that 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a prime example of a a fairy tale in the Bible. I would like to accord God, Who sometimes hides things, as a God Who wants to reveal things to His friends. He sometimes uses obscure language, and he sometimes uses parables. But 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 is neither obscure nor a parable. The Thessalonians, according to Acts 17, only had Paul teach them for three weekends. Their knowledge was not complete and they labored over some questions.

One of these questions arose from Paul's teachings on the rapture. It was; "If Paul taught that LIVING saints would be caught away to the air, they sorrowed for those saints who had died because they would miss the rapture?" A secondary question arose from this. If Enoch and the Psalmist predicted that the saints would be with Jesus when He came, how could they get from Hades and the grave to the place where our Lord came from - the sky?

Paul answers as follows:
(i) There was no reason to sorrow (v.13)
(ii) All the saints will be with Jesus when He comes (v.14)
(iii) How? Are they not dead an buried and their naked souls in Hades?
(iv) In this way. Those who are alive will NOT PREVENT the dead saints. "Prevent" means "do an action before another".
(v) The Lord will come to the clouds. The Greek word is "Parousia" which means "PRESENT"
(vi) On stopping in the clouds, He will shout and cause a Trumpet to blow. At this time the dead under the earth WILL RISE to the surface of the earth. There they meet the LIVING.
(vii) Then TOGETHER they will be caught away (lit. Gk.) to the air and in the clouds
(viii) This enables ALL to be with the Lord on that day and so the Thessalonians should be comforted (V.18)

The language is simple and unambiguous. There is a Lord DESCENDING Who gives a divinely powered signal for the dead in Christ to RISE. These RISEN will meet the LIVING and TOGETHER the will be transported to the presence of Christ in the clouds. Now, all that remains is to

(i) establish WHY the Church, those who have died and those who are living at Christ's coming, will be transported to the clouds

(ii) establish WHEN this will happen

Number (i) answers number (ii). The rest of the context of Paul's first letter, that is, Chapter 5, warns of TRAVAIL for men (5:3). What is the Christian to do in the face of this threat? "HOPE for SALVATION" (5:8). On what basis shall the Christian have this HOPE? On the basis that Christ is able to save a man from God's wrath and that Christians have not been appointed to this outpouring of God's wrath. What are we SAVED from by our faith in Jesus? Why - God's wrath and the Lake of Fire. Is Christ's death made only for this? NO! It is able to save to the uttermost!

But WHEN will this occur, we ask? When are men saved? When they are in great danger. What is the great danger? The Travail! When will the travail come? Aaaah! We now have a display of God's wisdom. The escape of the Christians from TRAVAIL is when men cry "SAFETY!" That is, this removal from earth as an escape will come as a SURPRISE. It will come when even the Christian is not aware. Why? Because God knew that men would grow weary with waiting. Like Peter, who had to wait for Jesus, says in John 21:3, "I go fishing!" It is innate in men to give up their quests when things delay themselves. So John, an old man already, says that he is in the "Kingdom and Patience" of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:9), and Jesus promises escape from the TRAVAIL in Revelation 3:10; "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth

The Rapture is an ESCAPE. Logically it will be before the onset of TRAVAIL. But it is a REWARD to those whose PATIENCE is tested and who don't fall away. In the context of this TRAVAIL, Luke 21:19 says; "in PATIENCE possess your souls"! Hebrews 12 tells us "run your race with PATIENCE" Don't be like the "faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24:45, who, when his Master DELAYED, turned to evil (v.48).

Summary:
- There is a rapture
- The dead saints will RISE to the surface of the earth
- The Living will not prevent them for TOGETHER they are caught away
- The living will have no advantage over the dead
- The rapture is an escape because Christ is Savior
- The rapture will be a surprise, but occur just before the TRAVAIL
- The rapture is God's way of moving the saints into the air so that those normally earth-bound can descend with the Lord from the air (Enoch)

 

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

James wrote to the Church, who Are the 12 tribes scattered abroad, where there is neither Jew nor Greek

That is not logical - saying 12 tribes (of Israel) then saying we are not Jew ...

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No disparaging whatsoever, you made a claim of a pre-trib rapture that's found no place in scripture, I don't expect you to post scripture to support your claim because none exist's

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

God the Father ....`may send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive UNTIL the TIMES OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)  

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is simply no hint that it is a "preview." John saw them at this time in the vision so wrote that He saw them at that time in the vision. 

I believe we can trust John and the Holy Spirit that caused Him to write, and God who gave the vision, that John saw that great crowd in heaven on John and God's timeline BEFORE John (and the Holy Spirit) started the 70th week - much less arrived at the midpoint of the week (in chapter 11.)

John tells us that once the book is opened, the first events to happen are the trumpet judgments. He then tells us that at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan (who usurped them from Adam) and given to Jesus Christ. Therefore, this book must have something to do with the earth lease given to Adam. I cannot prove this, but according to ancient Jewish sages, man (starting with Adam) was to rule the earth for 6000 years, and God was to rule earth for the 7th thousand years. I think Revelation proves this.

This tells me that God will sound the 7th trumpet when Adam's 6000 year lease is up. Suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to anything so is cast down (The war in heaven in Rev. 12).

I suspect that the entire 70th week that ENDS the Jewish age is what is written inside the book. Therefore I partly agree with your statement. John does not write it, but I am convinced the book is opened when the 7th seal is opened, so the first trumpet judgment is what is written inside the book.

`Who are these arrayed in white robes,and where did they come from?.....These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION,...` (Rev. 7: 13 & 14)

`The earth is the LORD`s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

`Ask of me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession.` (Ps. 2: 8)

[truth7t7]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The overwhelming bulk of the Old Testament is written about Twelve Tribes that came from Jacob's loins. The New Testament tells me that the TWELVE Apostles that Christ chose, are sent to these TWELVE TRIBES - the CIRCUMCISION. These TWELVE TRIBES will exist when Christ returns and Christ, Son of David, will rule them. His Second in Command will be David (Jer.30:9) and each Tribe will have one Apostle sitting on his throne judging that Tribe (Matt.19:28, Lk.22:30).

James 1.1 says that James did his God-given duty to approach these Twelve Tribes - the CIRCUMCISION, with God's inspired message to them. These twelve Tribes are specifically those that were "SCATTERED". Being scattered was a temporal chastisement for breaking the Law of Moses. The prophets to the Twelve Tribes predict a restoration when Christ returns.

The Church
Was not revealed to the prophets of old
Did not come from Jacob's loins
The Church is ONE - not twelve
The Church's expression is one Church-one City, NOT occupying a  Land
The Church is not the CIRCUMCISION for circumcision is not required
The Church never occupied a Land called Canaan
The Church's fathers did not come out of Egypt
The Church has One Father - Israel has Twelve
The Church did not receive the Law of Moses
The Church is the "gathering of the called-out ones", NOT "the SCATTERING"
The Church is a Spiritual House. Israel is a physical household
The Church came out Christ's death. Israel came out of Isaac's loins
The Church is "brethren IN Christ" (Col.1.2). Israel is "brethren according to the flesh (Rom.9:3)
The Church is a Kingdom of Life. Israel is no Kingdom
The Church loves and embraces Jesus. Israel hate Him
The Church is commanded to forsake this world. Israel are rewarded with the things of this world
The Church is a New Man with no past. Israel has 4,000 years of history

May I suggest, as politely as possible, that Israel and the Church could not be more opposite.

 

As you have clearly been shown, James was writing to "The Church" that are the 12 tribes scattered abroad

Jesus Is The Lord 

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

That is in reference to the 2nd Coming not the Rapture.  Again where is the date ln Scripture which  reference the Bridegroom coming for the Bride. Tying two events together won't work. In the beginning was the Word. It states that only the Father knows. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

I can't post scripture in support of a pre-trib rapture,  because it doesn't exist in scripture

Dispensationalism takes the second coming seen in scripture, and claims it's a pre-trib rapture