Revelation and the meaning (so-called) of 666

[Revelation Man]

On 10/1/2022 at 6:03 AM, AdHoc said:

Here's my posting followed by your answer. If you can see a correlation I'd be happy to join in. From my point of view your answer had nothing to do with what I said. But if you feel you won a debate ... well, good win
 

 

But, if you're happy, let's move on (smiley).

As long as you agree God gave Nebuchadnezzar the dream I'm good.

[WilliamL]

On 9/30/2022 at 4:40 PM, AdHoc said:

On 9/30/2022 at 2:21 PM, WilliamL said:

The Church, the Body of Christ, is a collective spirit. We are one; just as Legion said of himself/themselves. Nations are collective spirits.

No. The Body of Christ is made of OUR BODIES

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? (1 Co 6:15a)

I think that we differ greatly in our handling of scripture.

Indeed. I think you cherry pick the verses that suit you, and ignore those that don't. Like these:

1 Cor. 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Eph. 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

Phil. 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel...

This is twice, for example, that you've ignored my question of how the Beast, if being a man as you say, can have seven heads?

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Indeed. I think you cherry pick the verses that suit you, and ignore those that don't. Like these:

1 Cor. 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Eph. 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

Phil. 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel...

This is twice, for example, that you've ignored my question of how the Beast, if being a man as you say, can have seven heads?

If you take the time you will see that each of your scriptures address the INDIVIDUAL and his relationship with the Lord, or the INDIVIDUAL Holy Spirit's activities. Not one said that His Body is a corporate spirit. And, you should have dealt with my proffered verse because all you have done now is pitted scripture against scripture - instead of reconciling it.

As to a man having seven heads, I did not write it. The Holy Spirit said in the very first verse of Revelation that He would "signify" things. The Greek for "signify" means "a sign". The book of Revelation is full of such imagery. It behooves us students to find the meaning. In this case the meaning is given - seven hills. In the case of the Beast, it is a Nation in Daniel Chapter 7 and elsewhere a KING, a MAN, a HE. I took the explanation most used by scripture. You choose something else.

The test for any explanation of an obscure thing in scripture is, how does it fit in the rest of the Bible. If you take the Beast as anything else than a man, you create absurdities. Try it. Substitute your understanding for "Beast" in every mention of it and see what strange things come up. Put a man in each mention and the results are perfectly feasible.

But to take the seven hills as anything else but hills is to defy scripture - not me. Your answer to me should be why they are NOT hills when the Holy Spirit said they are!

[WilliamL]

On 10/2/2022 at 4:26 PM, AdHoc said:

If you take the time you will see that each of your scriptures address the INDIVIDUAL and his relationship with the Lord, or the INDIVIDUAL Holy Spirit's activities. Not one said that His Body is a corporate spirit.

At least two of those scriptures are clearly speaking of not the individual, but the whole body of believers:

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Phil. 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you [plural] stand fast in one spirit, with one mind...

On 10/2/2022 at 4:26 PM, AdHoc said:

As to a man having seven heads, I did not write it. ... In this case the meaning is given - seven hills. In the case of the Beast, it is a Nation in Daniel Chapter 7 and elsewhere a KING, a MAN, a HE. I took the explanation most used by scripture.

"Elsewhere?" Where? as far as I know, you have never quoted scriptures to back up this claim. Please supply the post(s) where you did.

On 10/2/2022 at 4:26 PM, AdHoc said:

If you take the Beast as anything else than a man, you create absurdities. Try it. Substitute your understanding for "Beast" in every mention of it and see what strange things come up. Put a man in each mention and the results are perfectly feasible.

Daniel 7:23 alone denies this on both counts: "The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth..."

On 10/2/2022 at 4:26 PM, AdHoc said:

But to take the seven hills as anything else but hills is to defy scripture - not me.

First off, both the KJV and the NKJV say "mountains," not hills. In the NKJV, the Greek oros  is translated 41 times as mountains, and only three times as hills.

Secondly, I have already quoted you two primary prophetic scriptures where the word "mountain" represents a kingdom. So I have not defied scripture. Most notably, this Messianic reference:

Daniel 2:35 ...the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ... 44 ...the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

You have simply failed to prove your case. And you continue to ignore all scriptures that contradict it.

Edited October 7, 2022 by WilliamL

[Estera]

Just a thought to throw in…

I try to stick to the principle of “scripture interprets scripture”…. When we try to find the answers to biblical mysteries by looking or thinking outside of the scriptures, we need to be careful.  It’s much safer to search the scriptures themselves for the answers, rather than coming up with theories based on external thoughts or ideas.  

A matter is established on two or more witnesses.

if we search the scriptures for the specific number 666 outside of Revelation, we see it is used three times.  Two of those times are in reference to the number of talents of gold given to Solomon each year. 

A talent is a measure, an amount… it has a number.  Like… a kilogram is a weight of 1000 grams. 

A talent can be divided into shekels, or even half shekels.   There is a connection between half shekels and men counted in a census.  (Exodus 30:11-15)

So perhaps we are being given some clues here?  666 is connected to gold (money?  Jesus said you can’t serve God and money) and a measure of weight, which has a number of man connected to it through the census. 
 

I’m not claiming to have the answer, but I do think it’s important to use scripture to find the solutions to these things…. So I thought I’d share as something for you all to think and pray about. 
 

Blessings,

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Phil. 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you [plural] stand fast in one spirit, with one mind...

May the reader judge if these scriptures say that the Church is a "collective spirit".

You will not acknowledge, nor address 1st Corinthians 6:15a ...

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Secondly, I have already quoted you two primary prophetic scriptures where the word "mountain" represents a kingdom. So I have not defied scripture. Most notably, this Messianic reference:

The Holy Spirit explained the seven heads by saying that they are hills. You give the hills the meaning of kingdoms thus adding a meaning to a meaning without warrant

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 7:23 alone denies this on both counts: "The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth..."

 A kingdom has a king by definition.

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"Elsewhere?" Where? as far as I know, you have never quoted scriptures to back up this claim. Please supply the post(s) where you did.

Some scriptures designating the Beast as a man, king and a "he" (all singular male). I am perplexed that they were were unknown to you.

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Revelation 13:2

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:4

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:12

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:14

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 13:15

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Revelation 17:10–11

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

... and so on.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Estera said:

Just a thought to throw in…

I try to stick to the principle of “scripture interprets scripture”…. When we try to find the answers to biblical mysteries by looking or thinking outside of the scriptures, we need to be careful.  It’s much safer to search the scriptures themselves for the answers, rather than coming up with theories based on external thoughts or ideas.  

A matter is established on two or more witnesses.

if we search the scriptures for the specific number 666 outside of Revelation, we see it is used three times.  Two of those times are in reference to the number of talents of gold given to Solomon each year. 

A talent is a measure, an amount… it has a number.  Like… a kilogram is a weight of 1000 grams. 

A talent can be divided into shekels, or even half shekels.   There is a connection between half shekels and men counted in a census.  (Exodus 30:11-15)

So perhaps we are being given some clues here?  666 is connected to gold (money?  Jesus said you can’t serve God and money) and a measure of weight, which has a number of man connected to it through the census. 
 

I’m not claiming to have the answer, but I do think it’s important to use scripture to find the solutions to these things…. So I thought I’d share as something for you all to think and pray about. 
 

Blessings,

Thanks for your input. Well have you said that we should explain scripture with scripture. And surely there is a connection. But actually, the number 666 in Revelation 13 is explained there.

 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Verse 18 confirms that it is
 - a number, and that it is devised by "counting" it. Thus, it is the sum of multiple factors.
 - It is the number of the Beast
 - it is the number of a man
 - It is 666

Added to this, man was created o the sixth day, and he is the sixth of all living creatures. Is it an accident that it in numerics it is the sum of Ner0 Caesar's name?

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your input. Well have you said that we should explain scripture with scripture. And surely there is a connection. But actually, the number 666 in Revelation 13 is explained there.

 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Verse 18 confirms that it is
 - a number, and that it is devised by "counting" it. Thus, it is the sum of multiple factors.
 - It is the number of the Beast
 - it is the number of a man
 - It is 666

Added to this, man was created o the sixth day, and he is the sixth of all living creatures. Is it an accident that it in numerics it is the sum of Ner0 Caesar's name?

Pure chance...dosen't fit the complete description of 666 either.

666 at its maturity...designates the "fullness of maturity" of the "6 man" who has stepped out of Gods 7th day rest (i.e. Cain the first 6) and back into toil by the sweat of the brow..."I am God...I can please God by my own standard"...kinda mentality.

The beast is strong against the earth today...and gaining strength continually...you know where that goes.

The global economy is increasingly slipping into the worst global disaster there has ever been...right now. The beast is in control economically and is intending on killing as many humans as possible...and in slaving those who survive...its on...

If you are in the economy of the beast...you are an earth dweller...you are not in the economy of God...those who dwell in heaven right here on earth .

Many nations are failed and failing already...the economic system of the beast is being implemented now at its most advanced stages yet. It has been in operation since Cain.

Christ...Head & Body...will take on the beast when both are fully mature...when the "standard of God...the Rod...Christ" on the earth will put on display the magnificent glory of the Father...exactly as Christ Yahshia did Himself...then the destruction of the beast will be completed.

No pretrib rapture...those who are looking for that will find that out all too soon.

You dont need to watch and wait for one who already came and has been here for nearly 2000 years...building His temple...building His kingdom...in His people...those who do are modern day Israel...

Repent and prepare the way of the Lord...while you can.

Tatwo...:)

[tim_from_pa]

3 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

It would be very helpful to see this theory in an illustration. 

I included a picture of a spherical triangle to illustrate what he apparently was saying.  Let C be the North Pole, B is Delphi Greece and A is the NYC trade center.  First of all, a mini-lesson on bearing or azimuth. If we face the pole C from B, i.e. looking due north from B, then a 90 degree azimuth angle is east, 180 is south and so forth.  If we go around 360 degrees we get back to C.  If we rotate another 306 degrees (666 degrees total) we are now facing A just shy of a second rotation of 720 degrees.  That means that angle B (signified by the Greek letter Beta is 54 degrees bearing LEFT (Northwest) of the pole.  That's the direction to both NYC trade center and New Orleans.  So AB (designated by the small letter c) is the line crossing both although obviously c would be larger to New Orleans but the bearing is the same.  He's going by the bearing.  

He's just playing with some math tricks claiming that this is another meaning of the number 666 in hidden form.  To be honest, I do the same thing which is what I was saying that his observation is interesting, although just slightly off.

Direction plays a role in the bible and as such is symbolic of things not the least of which one faces toward Israel (e.g. the Temple) to pray from this end of the world in NYC one would face basically Northeast (in this illustration angle alpha since Greece is close to Israel)

[tim_from_pa]

Why didn't I think of taking a screen shot?  LOL.  Here's the real triangle.