Do people of other religions who never heard of Gospel can receive forgiveness at the GWT ?

[R. Hartono]

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

There were many people who never heard of Gospel salvation as God never send any prophets to their nations either in ancient OT times or shortly after NT era. They never learn about Jesus resurrection from death and the coming resurrection of the saints. Do people like this have the chance of forgiveness by judgment of their deeds at the GWT ?

 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Hopefully]

“God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are. People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin.
 

People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law.

Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.

Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree.

Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty. All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:11-16‬ ‭

Edited July 29, 2022 by Hopefully

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

There were many people who never heard of Gospel salvation as God never send any prophets to their nations either in ancient OT times or shortly after NT era.

Such as the buddhist in India 2500 years ago they never learn salvation news from the prophets so they just follow Siddharta Gautama who preached that life is such a misery and renounce wordly life. They never learn about Jesus resurrection from death and the coming resurrection of the saints. Do people like this have the chance of forgiveness by judgment of their deeds at the GWT ?

 

The answer is yes. In the closing passage of Isaiah we have the prophet's prediction of  the situation on the New Earth. The language is plain and needs no interpretation: Isaiah 66:22-24

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

• In verse 22 the Lord promises  Israel that their seed and name will not be cut off from God again
• In verse 23 that which God insists upon in the Millennium in Zechariah 14:16 will continue
• In verse 24 we have the men that may not have audience with Jesus - those in the Lake of Fire. They are called "carcases" because they wallow in the Second Death - intense suffering of the soul and the body (Matt.10:28). The suffering is personal. It is THEIR worm and THEIR fire, showing that God has apportioned their perdition according to their sins. And we find what gets a man into this condition - "they transgressed against God".

That is, they acted in a calculated way to damage the things of God and/or to thwart His plans. Let us examine a few examples.

An infant is born and dies two days later. Has he/she transgressed against God? No. The infant is resurrected for the Great White Throne and will live on the New Earth subject to the benign reign of Jesus over the Nations

A Mongolian shepherd lives his life, steals some sheep, has an affair with another shepherds wife, and once kills a raiding bandit while protecting his sheep. He has stolen, committed adultery and shed a bandit's blood. What will God's decision be? If God finds that in all his doings, he did not actively go against God, God has the right to extend mercy based on our Lord's death for "the sins of the whole world" (1st Jn.2:2). If so, he will join the infant above in his resurrection body and be a subject in our Lord's Kingdom on the New Earth.

Winston Churchill was Lord of the Admiralty when the RMS Lusitania was sunk and 1,100+ civilians died. Investigations into this are hampered by wartime secrecy laws, but it is suspected that Churchill, in order to get USA into the war, told German sources where and when the Lusitania would be, removed its protective escort and took the weekend off. Nothing has been conclusively proved except bad judgment. But suppose Sir Winston had a hand in the killing of all those people? What would be his fate at the White Throne? God told Noah, that a fatal blow against a fellow man was a blow against God because man was made in God's image. Churchill's end would be the Lake of Fire.

One of the greatest acts of mercy by God is the forgiving of Israel. In Romans Chapter 9 to 11 it is made abundantly clear that Israel remain blind and unbelieving till the time of the Gentiles is full. That is, Israel reject Jesus vehemently till He bursts out of the clouds over Mount Olives. Then, seeing Who it is, they mourn. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith. In this definition faith that saves must be directed at the UNSEEN. Once the object of faith is SEEN, faith ceases. So if Israel remain unbelieving until Jesus is SEEN, on what basis are their sins forgiven? The reason for forgiveness is that God promised it through the prophets, and the basis of forgiveness is the death of Jesus who judicially paid for "the sins of the whole world". Romans 11:32 is quite clear. Israel are "ALL" concluded by God, to be in UNBELIEF when they obtain mercy.

So it is at the White Throne. There are no Christians there. The Christians are to be resurrected a thousand years earlier "when he (Christ) comes - 1st Cor.15:23" There are no Jews at the White Throne. They are all resurrected and judged just after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). Only the Nations are judged at the White Throne - by books of their works. Some pass and some some fail. The criteria is in Isaiah 66:24 - did they actively go against God.

[Dennis1209]

Good morning, the following is only my opinion.

Anyone with the Beast's mark or kneeling before God at the Great White Throne judgment is already condemned. Their fate is set in concrete, and those people will be judged and sentenced according to their "works."

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [emphasis added]

It appears just as Christians (and those with saving faith like Abraham) will receive different crowns and rewards based on their faith, service, and fruit produced. A person that does not possess saving faith likewise will receive judgment based on their works, but all will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

A person's good works apart from God are like filthy rags. Would it be just and fair for a person who tried to live a moral life and did many good works for humanity apart from having saving faith in God to receive the same or worse pain, torment, and suffering as, say, Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot? The Lord's wrath and judgment are always "measured" in proportion to His will.

Speaking of "measured," every person has been given a measure of truth and understanding throughout history. That includes people living in the deepest jungles of Africa and South America, everyone who has never heard. I think the standard for those pre-Gospel, and those that have never heard the Gospel is:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [without the excuse of what?]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the Grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. [emphasis added]

Bible scholars have divided all human history into dispensations (Innocence, conscience, human government, promise, law, Grace, divine government, and redeemed and faithful angels).

One can observe it in a child; they inherently know right from wrong, good from evil. I would cite some examples, but this has already grown too long.

Suffice it to say; the standard is acting upon, seeking God and the truth, with the measure of faith, trust, truth, and awareness each person is given and repenting.  

I believe the following applies to the dispensation of Grace in which we are living and beyond:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel was hidden and a mystery before the arrival of Jesus. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

 

[Alive]

16 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Bible scholars have divided all human history into dispensations (Innocence, conscience, human government, promise, law, Grace, divine government, and redeemed and faithful angels).

One can observe it in a child; they inherently know right from wrong, good from evil. I would cite some examples, but this has already grown too long.

Suffice it to say; the standard is acting upon, seeking God and the truth, with the measure of faith, trust, truth, and awareness each person is given and repenting.  

I believe the following applies to the dispensation of Grace in which we are living and beyond:

I do not know how God works out all of these things, but I am convinced of one thing and that is that God's dealing with mankind has always been by Grace and in terms of how you have suggested dispensations, it errs in this way.

I know this because we all can attest to the fact that works of any kind are not sufficient to overcome the results of the Fall/Sin.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Alive
typo

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The answer is yes. In the closing passage of Isaiah we have the prophet's prediction of  the situation on the New Earth. The language is plain and needs no interpretation: Isaiah 66:22-24

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

• In verse 22 the Lord promises  Israel that their seed and name will not be cut off from God again
• In verse 23 that which God insists upon in the Millennium in Zechariah 14:16 will continue
• In verse 24 we have the men that may not have audience with Jesus - those in the Lake of Fire. They are called "carcases" because they wallow in the Second Death - intense suffering of the soul and the body (Matt.10:28). The suffering is personal. It is THEIR worm and THEIR fire, showing that God has apportioned their perdition according to their sins. And we find what gets a man into this condition - "they transgressed against God".

That is, they acted in a calculated way to damage the things of God and/or to thwart His plans. Let us examine a few examples.

An infant is born and dies two days later. Has he/she transgressed against God? No. The infant is resurrected for the Great White Throne and will live on the New Earth subject to the benign reign of Jesus over the Nations

A Mongolian shepherd lives his life, steals some sheep, has an affair with another shepherds wife, and once kills a raiding bandit while protecting his sheep. He has stolen, committed adultery and shed a bandit's blood. What will God's decision be? If God finds that in all his doings, he did not actively go against God, God has the right to extend mercy based on our Lord's death for "the sins of the whole world" (1st Jn.2:2). If so, he will join the infant above in his resurrection body and be a subject in our Lord's Kingdom on the New Earth.

Winston Churchill was Lord of the Admiralty when the RMS Lusitania was sunk and 1,100+ civilians died. Investigations into this are hampered by wartime secrecy laws, but it is suspected that Churchill, in order to get USA into the war, told German sources where and when the Lusitania would be, removed its protective escort and took the weekend off. Nothing has been conclusively proved except bad judgment. But suppose Sir Winston had a hand in the killing of all those people? What would be his fate at the White Throne? God told Noah, that a fatal blow against a fellow man was a blow against God because man was made in God's image. Churchill's end would be the Lake of Fire.

One of the greatest acts of mercy by God is the forgiving of Israel. In Romans Chapter 9 to 11 it is made abundantly clear that Israel remain blind and unbelieving till the time of the Gentiles is full. That is, Israel reject Jesus vehemently till He bursts out of the clouds over Mount Olives. Then, seeing Who it is, they mourn. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith. In this definition faith that saves must be directed at the UNSEEN. Once the object of faith is SEEN, faith ceases. So if Israel remain unbelieving until Jesus is SEEN, on what basis are their sins forgiven? The reason for forgiveness is that God promised it through the prophets, and the basis of forgiveness is the death of Jesus who judicially paid for "the sins of the whole world". Romans 11:32 is quite clear. Israel are "ALL" concluded by God, to be in UNBELIEF when they obtain mercy.

So it is at the White Throne. There are no Christians there. The Christians are to be resurrected a thousand years earlier "when he (Christ) comes - 1st Cor.15:23" There are no Jews at the White Throne. They are all resurrected and judged just after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). Only the Nations are judged at the White Throne - by books of their works. Some pass and some some fail. The criteria is in Isaiah 66:24 - did they actively go against God.

Good morning, AdHoc,

I have a question about “their worm.”

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. [emphasis mine]

My interlinear suggests this “worm” is not symbolic or a metaphor but an actual insect like a maggot. I know this is a reference to the continuous burning garbage dump of Gehenna with the human & animal carcasses infested with worms.

All contracted worm parasites, from the Bot fly larvae to the tapeworm, are painful and tormenting. Is Isaiah 66:24 a literal picture of worms torturing their resurrected bodies in pain, with no hope of relief?

That is my present understanding anyway.

[enoob57]

God tell us no!

Revelation 20:12 (KJV)

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV)

[9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

Titus 3:5 (KJV)

[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Simply if it is not by works it is not by works ...

[Dennis1209]

51 minutes ago, Alive said:

I do not know how God works out all of these things, but I am convinced of one thing and that is that God's dealing with mankind has always been by Grace and in terms of how you have suggested dispensations, it errs in this way.

I know this because we all can attest to the fact that works of any kind are not sufficient to overcome the results of the Fall/Sin.

Good morning Alive,

I am not sure either; I cannot even wrap my head around the concept of unmerited favor, other than we do not deserve it and naturally cannot earn it. I have yet to hear of anyone in 100% harmony in their theology and hermeneutics.

The division of dispensationalism gives me a better understanding of the ages and the unfolding of God's divine plan dealing with our fallen nature and our need for a divine Savior that only God could provide as a substitute.

I have always made it clear that works never saved anyone; human good works and works (fruit) for the Kingdom of God are opposite. Our "good works" apart from Christ are filthy rags to God.

Isaiah 64:6 (KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

However, human works, both good and evil, will be a significant factor for those sentenced before the Great White Throne.

[Alive]

15 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning Alive,

I am not sure either; I cannot even wrap my head around the concept of unmerited favor, other than we do not deserve it and naturally cannot earn it. I have yet to hear of anyone in 100% harmony in their theology and hermeneutics.

The division of dispensationalism gives me a better understanding of the ages and the unfolding of God's divine plan dealing with our fallen nature and our need for a divine Savior that only God could provide as a substitute.

I have always made it clear that works never saved anyone; human good works and works (fruit) for the Kingdom of God are opposite. Our "good works" apart from Christ are filthy rags to God.

Isaiah 64:6 (KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

However, human works, both good and evil, will be a significant factor for those sentenced before the Great White Throne.

Amen! Grace and Grace alone through Faith and faith alone.

I have found it helpful in study, to see Christ from bookend to bookend. I see the Lord using various vehicles for revealing and leading us to Christ, but the effectual work in man has never been by anything but Grace. Those two things--Christ and Grace--simplify things for me.

LOL

At least this makes sense to me. I am dogmatic about little else. Christ Crucified before the foundation of the world.

[AdHoc]

42 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning, AdHoc,

I have a question about “their worm.”

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. [emphasis mine]

My interlinear suggests this “worm” is not symbolic or a metaphor but an actual insect like a maggot. I know this is a reference to the continuous burning garbage dump of Gehenna with the human & animal carcasses infested with worms.

All contracted worm parasites, from the Bot fly larvae to the tapeworm, are painful and tormenting. Is Isaiah 66:24 a literal picture of worms torturing their resurrected bodies in pain, with no hope of relief?

That is my present understanding anyway.

I can live with that. But we should strictly give the same status to "fire" then. But I find it easier to give them symbolic meaning. The reason is that in Matthew 10:28 there is suffering inflicted on (i) the body, and (ii) the soul. The worm speaks of the bodily suffering as Herod was eaten alive by worms and 1st Peter 4:12 says our soulish suffering is "fire" which causes "heaviness" (1st Pet.1:6). In Luke 9:54 real fire "consumes" and these men and women are tormented forever.

I always try to go for the literal until it doesn't work, so I'm in basic agreement with a literal worm. But using it symbolically opens more revelation and satisfies the context more. Its a toss up.