Do people of other religions who never heard of Gospel can receive forgiveness at the GWT ?

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

• The book is at the great throne because an accounting is to be made.   We are not saved by works, but our works will condemn us if we have rejected the Grace of Christ
• All all nations were blessed, for through Abraham came Christ and everyone in the world who accepts Christ is saved
• The judgment of the sav ed is not to determine salvation but reward, but even  (1 Cor 3:15) If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
• Jesus said Israel will be cut off and a new vine grafted in...the new israel.

It is faith in The Messiah that saves, Hebrews 11 tells us that the Patriarchs had faith in the coming Christ, and we have faith in the Risen Christ but it is the same faith, the same Christ who saves all in all - to those who repent and believe

 

 

In my answer to another brother just above, I showed that on Pentecost, with pious men who knew Jehovah, the  conversion rate was about half a percent. I'm sure you will agree that even if we stretch that to 7% we could not talk about "all families of earth being blessed".

And you can see from your own answer how difficult the matter is. At EVERY judgement in the Bible, WORKS were judged. Faith is never mentioned in any of the judgments. If I asked you for scriptures for your statements above, which would you give? But I gladly give some scriptures:

1. In Philippians 2:7-11 our Lord Jesus is rewarded for what He DID
2. In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 we are to give account for what we DID
3. In Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 we are refused entry into the Kingdom for what we DID
4. In 1st Corinthians 3 it is, "IF any man's WORK .... :"
5. In Israel, after the Great Tribulation, they are judged according to Law (Dan.12:1-2, Rom.2:12)
6. When Christ judges "ALL Nations" (Matthew 25:31-32) it is based on what they DID
7. When Christ judges the "rest of the dead" at the White throne, their WORKS are judged
8. In Isaiah 66:24 it is those who go against God that land in the Lake of Fire

In all of these faith is never mentioned.

But I have a question. Herod ordered the death of all boys under two years in Bethlehem. They were Jewish children. God made promises to Abraham AND HIS SEED. What chance did these boys have to hear the gospel? If judgment is based on works these boys will be resurrected and given Canaan as "an everlasting possession". If they are judged on their faith, they are doomed.

 

[JohnR7]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Do people like this have the chance of forgiveness by judgment of their deeds at the GWT ?

God is a God of absolute Justice. Every name is written in the book of life from the beginning. People have to reject Jesus to have their name blotted out of the book of life. Abraham understood that God would provide the sacrifice. (Genesis 22:8) As Gentiles we are adopted into the family of Abraham. Revolution 3:5 and Exodus 32:33 talks about “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.." Or Deuteronomy 29:20 "the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."

David talks about a book also in Psalms 139 16. "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." This is the book people are judged by. How faithful  we are to follow God plan and purpose for us and our life. Revolution 20:12 "the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.." (NIV)

[JohnR7]

19 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But I have a question. Herod ordered the death of all boys under two years in Bethlehem.

Matthew 19:4 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."  We have to understand simple like a child before we can understand the complicated. There is an age of consent around 12. If children die before this they go straight to Heaven. 

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You hold, more or less, the majority view. I held it for a decade or so and then was more comfortable with another view - which I've posted already. I would like, in the friendliest way, to point out a few things which you could perhaps consider over time. (I actaully think that you've already considered them. You are knowledgeable and diligent with scripture. The following are the major problems we face. with this judgment.

1. All Christians will be judged at the Bema, in the sky, at our Lord's coming (or better said "presence"). So why is the Book of Life present at the White Throne?
2. God's promise to Abraham was that "IN him would all the families of the earth be blessed". How can this be if 99% of the all men who ever lived go to the Lake of Fire
3. Although it is clear that all are judged on their works, there is a strong tendency to make FAITH the criteria. This is because a man's sin and sins are set aside because of FAITH in Jesus and His Work and John 3:18 gives the reason for condemnation as no faith - not works
4. And if this be true, how will Israel be forgiven?

The astute Bible student will at once admit that we have almost the same problems with the judgment of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

1. There, "All Nations" are judged.
2. They are judged at the "Throne" (Thronos - Gk. - not Bema like the Christians)
3. They are judged on how they treated "the least of the Lord's BRETHREN". The word "brethren" could mean Israelite because they have a common father - Abraham. Or it could mean Christian for we are, by the New Birth, brothers of Jesus. What ever, the Sheep AND the Goats are CONTRASTED with Jesus' brethren. So together with the description "ALL Nations", the Sheep could NOT be Christians. If so, why and how do they "enter LIFE"

If these facts are introduced then we already have problems with both these judgments. If we add the common Christian viewpoint that the "bad" ones go to hell, then we automatically overturn the Reformation because we admit that a man goes to hell FOR WORKS! But this is not the case.

There sure is a lot to comment on 😊. As always, my personal views and understandings can change with time and study, but at present, the following are my views.

"So why is the Book of Life present at the White Throne?"

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. [emphasis mine]

Blot out : 1813. ἐξαλείφω ĕxalĕiphō, ex-al-i´-fo; from 1537 and 218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, fig. pardon sin):—blot out, wipe away.

Strong, James. A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible, vol. 1, Logos Bible Software, 2009, p. 29.

It makes sense, and I believe that before the foundation of the world, everyone's name was written in the Book of Life. The fall and sin entered the world. Blot, blotted, blotteth, and blotting are in twenty-one verses in the Bible. It carries the sense of covering, wiping away, or removing.

Our Lord is a legalist, and I suspect this is additional legal evidence showing they were in the Book of Life but did not accept the requirements for a free pardon bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus.

As you stated, we will stand before the Lord at the Bema Seat of Christ. Not for judgment, but our rewards and crowns, if any. I do not believe that will be a happy time for many like myself. Giving an account of my entire life, the opportunities I squandered, the gifts I didn't use, the number of times I had the chance to share the Gospel and did not, disregarding the Holy Spirit speaking to me and doing it my way instead, etc.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

In glory, I will look around for my missing loved ones, probably knowing their fate, confessing and admitting why I did not lead by example, and tell them about Jesus. Based on the Revelation chronology, I sense that the Tribulation martyr's tears will be immediately wiped away. The way I interpret scripture is that those Raptured will not have their tears removed until after the millennium entering eternity.

"God's promise to Abraham was that "IN him would all the families of the earth be blessed". How can this be if 99% of the all men who ever lived go to the Lake of Fire."

The rain falls on the just and unjust alike. Israel is but a tiny sliver of land but rich in many resources. Since Ishmael and Esau, pagan, Gentile, and Arab nations have been blessed with abundant land and natural resources (water, fertile soil, oil & gas, borders, etc.). I believe what you mention to be a promise on earth given to Abraham's descendants. Abraham was a Gentile, and we know the story of Jacob (Israel) and his twelve children after that.

"And if this be true, how will Israel be forgiven?"

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [emphasis mine]

My view is Israel will be restored spiritually as a nation once again. They accept a false messiah, and the blinders are lifted at the Abomination of Desolation, and they realize they crucified the Lord of Glory. The remnant of Israel calls out and prays for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The individual Jew's fate is the same as the Gentile not having saving faith in the Messiah.

"The astute Bible student will at once admit that we have almost the same problems with the judgment of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46."

One-quarter of the earth's population will survive the worst time ever in history, or ever will be. I contend that Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about the surviving nations allowed to enter the millennium based on how they treated Israel during the Tribulation.

One example: I think the Jews will be fleeing to Petra, Jordan, across the Jordan River to escape the Antichrist persecution and slaughter. The A/C, for some reason, does not invade Jordan, and I think Jordan allows their escape migration.

I don't know if America will even be a nation by the time or during the Tribulation. But as the pattern is forming toward God's chosen people, the trend does not look very promising for us as a nation. We are trending from blessing Israel to cursing her.

I believe those nations and people (sheep) are entering life by being allowed to live and enter the millennium. I think the Lord physically kills off the "goats." It reminds me of the tradition of the "scapegoat" sacrifice.

Leviticus 16:8 (KJV) And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Nice talk exchanging ideas.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

God is a God of absolute Justice. Every name is written in the book of life from the beginning. People have to reject Jesus to have their name blotted out of the book of life. Abraham understood that God would provide the sacrifice. (Genesis 22:8) As Gentiles we are adopted into the family of Abraham. Revolution 3:5 and Exodus 32:33 talks about “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.." Or Deuteronomy 29:20 "the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."

David talks about a book also in Psalms 139 16. "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." This is the book people are judged by. How faithful  we are to follow God plan and purpose for us and our life. Revolution 20:12 "the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.." (NIV)

 

10 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Matthew 19:4 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."  We have to understand simple like a child before we can understand the complicated. There is an age of consent around 12. If children die before this they go straight to Heaven. 

For your salient points you gave no scripture. In the first posting above the verses you gave were directed at Israelites.

In your second posting above, it is a nice thought, but I find not a single verse that guarantees dead children heaven. The verse you gave is not a guarantee of little children getting into the Kingdom of Heaven, but an analogy that the doctrines of the Kingdom of Heaven must be received  with childlike acceptance.

Finally, John 3:3-5 sets the qualification for "seeing" and "entering" the Kingdom. It is rebirth and immersion in water. A 6 month old baby neither comprehends nor is up to making a decision based on the faith needed for rebirth.

I only point these things out to show the difficulties involved.

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But I have a question. Herod ordered the death of all boys under two years in Bethlehem. They were Jewish children. God made promises to Abraham AND HIS SEED. What chance did these boys have to hear the gospel? If judgment is based on works these boys will be resurrected and given Canaan as "an everlasting possession". If they are judged on their faith, they are doomed.

Thats interesting.

[Leonardo Von]

I don't believe that there is a place in the world where people never heard of Jesus.

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There sure is a lot to comment on 😊. As always, my personal views and understandings can change with time and study, but at present, the following are my views.

"So why is the Book of Life present at the White Throne?"

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. [emphasis mine]

Blot out : 1813. ἐξαλείφω ĕxalĕiphō, ex-al-i´-fo; from 1537 and 218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, fig. pardon sin):—blot out, wipe away.

Strong, James. A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible, vol. 1, Logos Bible Software, 2009, p. 29.

It makes sense, and I believe that before the foundation of the world, everyone's name was written in the Book of Life. The fall and sin entered the world. Blot, blotted, blotteth, and blotting are in twenty-one verses in the Bible. It carries the sense of covering, wiping away, or removing.

Our Lord is a legalist, and I suspect this is additional legal evidence showing they were in the Book of Life but did not accept the requirements for a free pardon bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus.

As you stated, we will stand before the Lord at the Bema Seat of Christ. Not for judgment, but our rewards and crowns, if any. I do not believe that will be a happy time for many like myself. Giving an account of my entire life, the opportunities I squandered, the gifts I didn't use, the number of times I had the chance to share the Gospel and did not, disregarding the Holy Spirit speaking to me and doing it my way instead, etc.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

In glory, I will look around for my missing loved ones, probably knowing their fate, confessing and admitting why I did not lead by example, and tell them about Jesus. Based on the Revelation chronology, I sense that the Tribulation martyr's tears will be immediately wiped away. The way I interpret scripture is that those Raptured will not have their tears removed until after the millennium entering eternity.

"God's promise to Abraham was that "IN him would all the families of the earth be blessed". How can this be if 99% of the all men who ever lived go to the Lake of Fire."

The rain falls on the just and unjust alike. Israel is but a tiny sliver of land but rich in many resources. Since Ishmael and Esau, pagan, Gentile, and Arab nations have been blessed with abundant land and natural resources (water, fertile soil, oil & gas, borders, etc.). I believe what you mention to be a promise on earth given to Abraham's descendants. Abraham was a Gentile, and we know the story of Jacob (Israel) and his twelve children after that.

"And if this be true, how will Israel be forgiven?"

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [emphasis mine]

My view is Israel will be restored spiritually as a nation once again. They accept a false messiah, and the blinders are lifted at the Abomination of Desolation, and they realize they crucified the Lord of Glory. The remnant of Israel calls out and prays for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The individual Jew's fate is the same as the Gentile not having saving faith in the Messiah.

"The astute Bible student will at once admit that we have almost the same problems with the judgment of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46."

One-quarter of the earth's population will survive the worst time ever in history, or ever will be. I contend that Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about the surviving nations allowed to enter the millennium based on how they treated Israel during the Tribulation.

One example: I think the Jews will be fleeing to Petra, Jordan, across the Jordan River to escape the Antichrist persecution and slaughter. The A/C, for some reason, does not invade Jordan, and I think Jordan allows their escape migration.

I don't know if America will even be a nation by the time or during the Tribulation. But as the pattern is forming toward God's chosen people, the trend does not look very promising for us as a nation. We are trending from blessing Israel to cursing her.

I believe those nations and people (sheep) are entering life by being allowed to live and enter the millennium. I think the Lord physically kills off the "goats." It reminds me of the tradition of the "scapegoat" sacrifice.

Leviticus 16:8 (KJV) And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Nice talk exchanging ideas.

Instead of answering you point for point, I decided to publish a thread on the Book of Life. It is in "Bible Study". We can continue to swap ideas here if you like, but the Book of Life should open a bag of worms. And it will not be because any one statement of mine is wildly off, but Christianity still holds quite some of Rome's myths. Their gospel is simplistic and they cannot explain many things because they only have heaven, hell and a dissolved earth. They believe that one's faith will be judged but scripture says that our works will be judged (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).

They preach hell if a person is not born again, but have no scriptures for infants who are killed or die at birth or a young age. Many Christians don't believe in the resurrection. They don't need it if they die and go to heaven. Many Christians still adhere to the Law despite Paul's harsh comments in Galatians. And so it goes on. It would be vain of me to claim all knowledge, but we have very good expositors since the Reformation, and the top learning institutes are good. But somehow the truth does not filter down to the ordinary Church-goer.

Well ... I've had my rant. Let me prepare for a few days of disputing over the Book of Life.

God's blessing on you soldier.

[Bluedragon]

22 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

I don't believe that there is a place in the world where people never heard of Jesus.

Consider this ....The Hebrew beliefs and the Bible states otherwise ...

For simplicity sake ..... Sheol is two rooms. Luke provides the answer of a wealthy man that ignored his neighbor in need. The neighbor in need followed God's word and tried his best to follow the law. He never knew Jesus. The wealthy man never followed God's plan ever .....he resided in a room known as Hades. When Jesus was on the cross he told the thief that believed in him that he would join Jesus today in paradise. Paradise is better known as Abraham's Bosom in Sheol. The souls in that room cannot reach across to Hades and provide comfort. The beggar could not dip his finger in water and give a drop to the wealthy man in Hades. The gap is too wide on purpose. Jesus dies on the cross, His souls goes to Abraham's Bosom and is joined shortly by the thief. Jesus then preaches to the "prisoners" in Abraham's Bosom. Noah, Moses, Job, Abraham, David ... just to name a few. Obviously none of them knew Jesus.  I believe that after the ascension into heaven ...Jesus empties the room Abraham's Bosom because it's no longer needed. There is no resting place for good souls because they go to heaven at death. he body is in the ground The soul in heaven and Jesus drew the line when he stated "No one goes to the Lord but by me." 

Peter states that the soul goes to heaven with the believer. 

I may be wrong .....but there is no soul sleep. The sleep is the body alone. The soul is on another plane and Sheol establishes that well before Jesus appears. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Bluedragon
edit

[JohnR7]

On 7/30/2022 at 4:48 AM, AdHoc said:

In the first posting above the verses you gave were directed at Israelites.

Maybe you should take a course at the Bible college so you can lean how what was "directed" at Israel applies to us.