Isa 53'and Jewish Rabbis

[ayin jade]

3 hours ago, Slibhin said:

A question I'm asking myself with increasing frequency. I assure you my exit is imminent.

I hope you stay.

[ayin jade]

1 hour ago, Deadworm said:

There is no evidence prior to Jesus for Jews applying Isaiah 53 to the Messiah.  So jere is the background for Jesus application of Isaiah 53 to Himself.

(1) The Essene Mauual of Discipline construes their communal life in the wilderness as "atonement" for the sins of Israel.

(2) Maccabean Jewish literature embraces the notion that the sacrifice of the Maccabean martyrs during their revolt in 175-163 BCE atones for Israel's sins.  This interpretation is foundation for the application of Isaiah 53 to individuals.

(3) This background paved the way for the recognition that the details of Isaiah's prophecy neatly parallel Jesus' life and mission and make more sense when applied to an individual than to a nation.  Often overlooked is the connection between Isaiah 53:8 ("They made His tomb with the rich.") and the wealthy sanhedrinist, Joseph of Arimathia's donation of his family tomb to Jesus.

Commentaries long prior to Jews for Jesus connect Isaiah 53 to Jesus.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Episcopius said:

Why are Christians supposed to CARE what Christ-rejecting rabbis think about Isaiah 53?

 

Is not given to you to care, you are too busy. 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, ayin jade said:

Commentaries long prior to Jews for Jesus connect Isaiah 53 to Jesus.

Didn’t Rashi state in the Talmud that 53 was messianic?

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 hours ago, Slibhin said:

A question I'm asking myself with increasing frequency. I assure you my exit is imminent.

I hope you don't leave. Although we may not agree on everything, I enjoy reading your thoughts and insights on subjects. I hope you will stay.

[ayin jade]

32 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Didn’t Rashi state in the Talmud that 53 was messianic?

 

Possibly. I am not familiar with rashi to know.

[Deadworm]

To clarify: no Jewish work prior to Jesus' life cites Isaiah 53 as prophesying the Messiah.  The Talmud and other Jewish sources cited above are centuries later and thus irrelevant to our discussion.

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Deadworm said:

To clarify: no Jewish work prior to Jesus' life cites Isaiah 53 as prophesying the Messiah.  The Talmud and other Jewish sources cited above are centuries later and thus irrelevant to our discussion.

I hope you would not mind educating me or providing me with your thoughts...

Before the Cross - we have the Tanakh as our source records,

After the Cross - we have the NT on the Christian side (however, with the exception of Luke who was with one of the disciples) were all Jewish followers of the Messiah- Paul of course, was converted soon after...

After the Cross - we have the Talmud and other Jewish writings: but they really look like they can be separated into two periods - Cross up to middle ages and then the middle ages to now. 

 

If you disagree with this very general breakdown of the available source records please let me know... Since you commented on living the Talmud out of this discussion, please let me know what other sources are available before the Cross other than the Tanakh... 

Thanks so much, Charlie

 

 

 

 

[Starise]

I believe there are additional references throughout the OT not only Isaiah 53. Once you begin to see the thread of redemption and the various archetypes of it. Joseph was a "type" of Jesus and are other stories. These are not stretches, these are what I believe is God's way of leading us to see His concepts.

Then we have a segue into Matthew written by a tax collector and who had a necessarily organized mind for that kind of work. The first thing he does is show the very organized family history of Jesus which is something a Jewish person would likely understand because they are often familiar with their family tree.

Matthew further shows how Jesus ended up in Bethlehem along with the ferocity and lengths Satan will go  through to prevent succession of God's kingdom on earth.  Using wicked men to remove a Jewish ruler by having all young boys in Nazareth killed. This trend has only continued over the years with wicked rulers doing everything they can to eliminate the eventual. Herod could not see the extent of Jesus eventual reign.

The NT scriptures  point to another strong OT connection- That the Jews were selected as the representatives to the rest of the world to initially bring Christ to the entire world. I believe the disciples were all Jewish. This goes back to one of the very first promises God gave to Abraham. That through his seed (Jesus) all nations of the earth would be blessed.

After Jesus returns, I believe the believing Jews will once again have this responsibility, to be the priests of the Most High to the rest of men. To carry out the responsibilities.

The Jews do not believe in a trinity. Jesus Himself ALWAYS deferred to the Father. Never in the bible will you find Jesus telling the Father anything, yet He is part of the godhead. This should make it easier to understand that the Father exalted Jesus to the position He holds. Once again an archetype of Joseph. For anything that concerns us low humans Jesus is our way to God and we worship Him, yet it was GOD who loved the world as John 3:16 states. "For GOD so loved the world He gave His only begotten son." GOD created the plan. The bible does not say Jesus loved the world, not that He didn't. GOD sent Jesus indicating His authority over Him.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Starise

[Marathoner]

18 hours ago, Slibhin said:

A question I'm asking myself with increasing frequency. I assure you my exit is imminent.

You aren't the only one.