Isa 53'and Jewish Rabbis

[Starise]

4 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Jesus is God so he did love the world. He created the world. All things were made by Jesus. The Trinity had part in all things. He was sent by the Father and was made low. Now he is Glorified with the glory he had before the world was made.

I never stated He didn't love the world. I only introduced the idea of hierarchy within the Godhead. I don't believe this can be denied.

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I hope you would not mind educating me or providing me with your thoughts...

Before the Cross - we have the Tanakh as our source records,

After the Cross - we have the NT on the Christian side (however, with the exception of Luke who was with one of the disciples) were all Jewish followers of the Messiah- Paul of course, was converted soon after...

After the Cross - we have the Talmud and other Jewish writings: but they really look like they can be separated into two periods - Cross up to middle ages and then the middle ages to now. 

 

If you disagree with this very general breakdown of the available source records please let me know... Since you commented on living the Talmud out of this discussion, please let me know what other sources are available before the Cross other than the Tanakh... 

Thanks so much, Charlie

 

 

 

 

Luke 24:26-27

²⁶ Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

 

²⁷ And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[JohnD]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:58 PM, Slibhin said:

On 8/20/2022 at 12:36 PM, Sower said:

I was wondering the same thing, Slibhin, why you are still here

A question I'm asking myself with increasing frequency. I assure you my exit is imminent.

I hope you will remain.

Don't let a few represent all.

They don't.

You are always welcome at my (and my Beloved Bride's) table.

[JohnD]

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 52:13 - 53:12 (Chabad Tanakh)

13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
14 As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.           
6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.       
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.           
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.           
11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.           
12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Yeshua HaNotzri in the Jewish Old Testament Tanakh.

Cross reference verses

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Isaiah 50:6 (KJV)
6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Yeshayahu 50:6 (Chhabad Tanakh)

6 I gave my back to smiters and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair; I did not hide my face from embarrassments and spitting.

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Yeshayahu 22:17 (Chabad Tanakh)

17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

Psalm 22:16 (KJV)
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Here we have a variance in the two translations.

The Hebrew word כארו (ka'aru) is found in one verse, Psalm 22:17 (verse 16 in Christian Bibles). Yes, I know, there are many out there who are saying, “No, that is not the word in Psalm 22:17 it is the word כארי (ka’ari).” But hear me out.

Let’s begin by defining these two Hebrew words. The word כארי (ka’ari) is the Hebrew word ארי (ari) meaning “lion,” with the prefix כ (k) meaning “like.” So כארי (ka’ari) means “like a lion.” The word כארו (ka'aru) is the Hebrew verb כאר (K.A.R) meaning “to dig” or possibly “to pierce” (the meaning of this word is determined by examining other Semitic languages that do use this word). When the letter vav (ו) is added to the end of a verb, it identifies the verb as perfect tense (similar to our past tense) and the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, plural. So, this verb would be translated as “they dug” or “they pierced.”

If Psalm 22:17 is translated with the word כארו (ka'aru), then it would read as;

For dogs will surround me, the assembly of evil ones encompasses me; they pierced my hands and feet.

If, on the other hand, we translate this verse with the word כארי (ka’ari), then it would read as;

For dogs will surround me, the assembly of evil ones encompass me, like a lion are my hands and feet.

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[Anne2]

14 hours ago, Slibhin said:

There is a big difference between a question being unanswered and not liking the answer given.

Yes, there is. 

[David1701]

Is. 53:1-6 (WEB)

 1 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

  2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,
and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty.
When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

  3 He was despised,
and rejected by men;
a man of suffering,
and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face;
and we didn’t respect him.

  4 Surely he has borne our sickness,
and carried our suffering;
yet we considered him plagued,
struck by God, and afflicted.

  5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.
He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him;
and by his wounds we are healed.

  6 All we like sheep have gone astray.
Everyone has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

We need to notice that this refers to one person, bearing the sickness, suffering, iniquity and punishment of many persons; and, by that, bringing them peace and wholeness.  This is substitutionary atonement (one taking the place of others, to atone for them).

It would take unbelievable mental gymnastics, to attempt to make the one person refer to the nation of Israel; whereas, it fits the Lord Jesus Christ perfectly.

Edited August 29, 2022 by David1701