Foreknowledge of God by Arthur W. Pink

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

What about you shall know them by their fruit?

 

fruit of the Spirit is, love, joy,peace,patience, kindness,goodness,faithfulness,gentleness,and self control?

Or is that another topic?

 

It's true, but it's a different topic.  Fruit of the Holy Spirit is evidence that someone has been saved.

[Your closest friendnt]

32 minutes ago, David1701 said:

It's true, but it's a different topic.  Fruit of the Holy Spirit is evidence that someone has been saved.

Not all the time...not necessarily though as to judged someone by his fruit if he is saved or not...and make this an absolute and disturbed other believers into thinking that they are not saved when they are saved...or erroneously Judging their family and friends who believe in Jesus Christ that they are not saved when they are saved...The common error is that they think that they are doing someone else's a favor never asking them if they believe, but only looking in the their fruit.

They forget that they read the scripture that says: by grace we are saved by believing that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins...

Edited October 5, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Selah7]

Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was foreordained.

….knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

- 1 Peter 1:18-21 (NKJV)

Selah 

[Your closest friendnt]

23 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was foreordained.

….knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

- 1 Peter 1:18-21 (NKJV)

Selah 

This is one of the most beautiful post I have read, together with the very best...

And you did not have to quote anyone else, it came strait from your heart.. AMEN...congratulations...you can bring forwards the treasures that are in your heart...that it was amazing...

I was waiting to hear something like that...

Edited October 5, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

12 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was foreordained.

….knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

- 1 Peter 1:18-21 (NKJV)

Selah 

You just prove something that both Jesus (the person) and the events that surround him and everything around him was preordained and it was prophesied long time before they happened...and they came to pass. 

[kwikphilly]

8 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

What about you shall know them by their fruit?

 

fruit of the Spirit is, love, joy,peace,patience, kindness,goodness,faithfulness,gentleness,and self control?

Or is that another topic?

 

Hi Sis

I do Believe the Fruits of the Spirit would be another Topic

But since you mentioned it- we don't have any Foreknowledge,we don't know who God Has Foreordained or predestined so it's a good way to discern the sheep from the wolves,at least we can have something to go by because talk is cheap,isn't it?!

With love in Christ, Kwik

 

[AdHoc]

On 10/4/2022 at 11:55 PM, David1701 said:

Of course salvation is the issue, in Rom. 8:29.  Look at the context!

Rom. 8:26-30 (NKJV)

²⁶ Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. ²⁷ Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

²⁸ And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. ²⁹ For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. ³⁰ Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

---Verses 29 and 30 are often called the "golden chain", because they show the order of many of the vital parts of salvation, and because everyone upon whom God has set his foreknowledge is predestined, called, justified, and, finally, glorified.  There is no break in the chain.

1) Foreknowing us

2) Predestining us

3) Calling us

4) Justifying us

5) Glorifying us

How can a man who is versed in English say that? The overall context of Romans Chapter 8 is the life of a man who has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. It is the solution to the death that Law brings (Chapter 7). How can "salvation" be forced into this context when it is neither said plainly nor alluded to?

The audience of this section of Romans 8 are men in whom the Spirit of God dwells and who still show "weakness". The weakness comes from the overpowering circumstances of life. A man has prayed and is still crushed. He knows not what to pray as his prayers seem to have the opposite effect. The indwelling Spirit interceded on His behalf.

Then comes the encouragement from the same Holy Spirit. He assures the Christian that his circumstances are not just sufferings to destruction. Each and every event is used by the Lord. The audience is "those who love the Lord". Far from the theme of "salvation" the context is, "why the loss to those who love the Lord". Why is Joseph in jail when he refused Potiphar's wife? Why is David driven off his inheritance and a fugitive from Saul when he was loyal to Saul, Israel and his God? The answer is, "WE KNOW" ... that ALL things God uses to our good. Why then the fiery trials for "those who love the Lord"?

Because those God FOREKNEW have been predestined to undergo a change of DISPOSITION. They love the Lord already. Why then the suffering? Because, like Peter, their love is insufficient and immature. They still tend to betray the Lord. Their love must be tempered by fire. Their confession must be strong and direct LIKE Christ's. And not only in love must they be like Christ, but in all aspects of their disposition. TO THIS we are predestined. That is, once you are in the Lord's CAMP, then a process begins - a process where a man or woman has his/her character changed.

God's councils are immutable. What He set out to do in Genesis 1:26-28 will be accomplished. God wants men and women who are IN HIS IMAGE to rule this earth. His royal family must be CHANGED from what Adam produced. The human spirit must undergo a new birth and so the born-again are fitted to see the kingdom. On resurrection day the new body is made to be fit for the kingdom (1st Cor.15:50-54). And the transforming of the soul must be accomplished. 2nd Peter 1:2-11 gives the process.

v.2 - God's KNOWLEDGE is the source of blessing
v.3 - God's KNOWLEDGE is the basis of His calling us "to virtue"
v.4 - the journey starts with God imparting "divine life" through a rebirth
v.5 - Then come "OUR EFFORT". "WE" must add virtue
v.11 - WHAT FOR? For an entrance into the kingdom

Will all Christians achieve this by the day of the judgment? No! There will be some who "do NOT make their election and calling sure" (v.10). Will those Christians who are barren and unfruitful have "entrance" into the Kingdom? No! Is it matter of "entrance to the Lake of Fire"? NO! But like the foolish Virgins they did not "buy" extra oil in their lifetime and are excluded from the Kingdom. They are sons of God but they are disinherited. Only those who ADDED VIRTUE are qualified. Why? Because God requires men and women IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST.

Romans 8 is not about being saved from the Lake of Fire. Romans 8 is about saved men and women entering a process whereby they are CONFORMED DISPOSITIONALLY to the image of Christ. It is to THIS that we are predestined.

Copy to @Selah7

Edited October 6, 2022 by AdHoc

[AdHoc]

On 10/4/2022 at 11:57 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Thanks for the clarification. As a former civilian pilot, myself, I am thinking in terms of the process that has nothing to do w/ predestination before the first solo flight. What country in Europe do you reside in if I may ask? 

My analogy is showing its limitations. I just can't think of a better one.

I think that the whole discussion would disappear if we didn't have the doctrine of "saved means going to heaven". The Bible is not about a man believing into Christ and then going to heaven (for what I don't know). The Bible is about God accomplishing His stated plan with man in Genesis 1:26-28. Then we would not have to fight about predestination. The Bible shows men who are fallen have their sins taken care of. Then a rebirth to impart the divine life so that they are of royal stock and thus heirs. The divine life is there so that a man can be in the image of Christ. But man's soul has pandered to his flesh all his life and needs a change. He needs to be transformed in his thinking, feeling and decision making. Then, he needs a new body - one fit for the Kingdom.

While the rebirth and the resurrection are guaranteed and accomplished by Christ, the "adding" of virtues is achieved with our cooperation (2nd Pet.1:2-11, Phil.2.12-13, 2nd Cor.3:18, etc.). The "old" soul is to be denied and the flesh put on the cross. Sufferings are part of it. Loss of worldly fame and goods are guaranteed. And so, God gets men and women LIKE Christ - not in His deity but in His human disposition.

If this was taught, and not some fable about pearly gates and golden streets, the Church would be the light of the world. Every Christian would be afraid of "shipwreck", of "outer darkness", of being left out of the wedding feast, of disciplining in an age when they should be rewarded.

The Lake of Fire is not a theme. Christ's work has dealt with that. Being sons of God is dealt with. WE have the rebirth. The Holy Spirit is dwelling in us with manifold implications. He cannot be removed. Rather, a sinning saint will be killed if he threatens to pollute the spirit (1st Cor.5). But what can be lost is our position as co-kings with Christ. How many "CROWNS" are promised to us? And all can be lost. That is the threat.

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

My analogy is showing its limitations. I just can't think of a better one.

I think that the whole discussion would disappear if we didn't have the doctrine of "saved means going to heaven". The Bible is not about a man believing into Christ and then going to heaven (for what I don't know). The Bible is about God accomplishing His stated plan with man in Genesis 1:26-28. Then we would not have to fight about predestination. The Bible shows men who are fallen have their sins taken care of. Then a rebirth to impart the divine life so that they are of royal stock and thus heirs. The divine life is there so that a man can be in the image of Christ. But man's soul has pandered to his flesh all his life and needs a change. He needs to be transformed in his thinking, feeling and decision making. Then, he needs a new body - one fit for the Kingdom.

While the rebirth and the resurrection are guaranteed and accomplished by Christ, the "adding" of virtues is achieved with our cooperation (2nd Pet.1:2-11, Phil.2.12-13, 2nd Cor.3:18, etc.). The "old" soul is to be denied and the flesh put on the cross. Sufferings are part of it. Loss of worldly fame and goods are guaranteed. And so, God gets men and women LIKE Christ - not in His deity but in His human disposition.

If this was taught, and not some fable about pearly gates and golden streets, the Church would be the light of the world. Every Christian would be afraid of "shipwreck", of "outer darkness", of being left out of the wedding feast, of disciplining in an age when they should be rewarded.

The Lake of Fire is not a theme. Christ's work has dealt with that. Being sons of God is dealt with. WE have the rebirth. The Holy Spirit is dwelling in us with manifold implications. He cannot be removed. Rather, a sinning saint will be killed if he threatens to pollute the spirit (1st Cor.5). But what can be lost is our position as co-kings with Christ. How many "CROWNS" are promised to us? And all can be lost. That is the threat.

Okay, I mostly agree with your thoughts. By mostly I mean I do not understand some of your points. Let me ask and put it a little differently to understand what you are saying.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Upon physical death of the body, our spirit returns to the Lord who gave it. Our soul will reside in one of two places for all eternity, with the Lord or Hell (followed by LOF). Depending on our personal relationship with Jesus and accepting his free offer of Salvation. I know, right now we are talking Salvation, not kingdom. Is this how you understand Salvation?

During the millennial reign, Jesus Himself is going to rule with a rod of iron. As with the parable of the 5, 2, and one talent. Those that produced fruit and increased for the kingdom receive rewards for their faith, trustworthiness, and service. Ruling over cities based on what they increased while in the flesh. All my commentaries agree, the slave that hid his talent was disobedient because of fear of the Master (he was hard) instead of love, and will be cast into outer darkness. Did this person have no wisdom?

Psalm 111:10 (KJV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.  [We can say this is works or lack thereof. ]

My understanding as a pretribulationalist, the only time we will be in the third heaven will be during the seven-year Tribulation. Perhaps this is where part of my confusion lies if you have a different view. Our eternal destiny will be located here on Earth as it was originally intended.

So, this leads to the difficulty I have understanding your thoughts. I take your meaning to be that not every born-again believer will enter the Kingdom of God, and rule and reign with Him. That leaves only one other place.

By this do you mean the “Kingdom of God” is not the entire planet? That this kingdom has borders such as the area promised to Israel, the one that the world will make an annual pilgrimage. Some are not allowed to enter those borders as alluded to above (the One talent).

Heaven is where the Lord resides, heaven will be on earth during the millennium. If we are not in Heaven with Jesus, we cannot be saved.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You know, the more I am studying this, the more confused I am getting.

Some feel that this unprofitable servant was not a true believer. But it seems that he was a true servant, even though he proved to be unprofitable. The “outer darkness” of Matthew 25:30 need not refer to hell, even though that is often the case in the Gospels (Matt. 8:12; 22:13). It is dangerous to build theology on parables, for parables illustrate truth in vivid ways. The man was dealt with by the Lord, he lost his opportunity for service, and he gained no praise or reward. To me, that is outer darkness.

I suppose it possible like Moses, to be looking from the outside in? 

[David1701]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

How can a man who is versed in English say that? The overall context of Romans Chapter 8 is the life of a man who has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. It is the solution to the death that Law brings (Chapter 7). How can "salvation" be forced into this context when it is neither said plainly nor alluded to?

The audience of this section of Romans 8 are men in whom the Spirit of God dwells and who still show "weakness". The weakness comes from the overpowering circumstances of life. A man has prayed and is still crushed. He knows not what to pray as his prayers seem to have the opposite effect. The indwelling Spirit interceded on His behalf.

Then comes the encouragement from the same Holy Spirit. He assures the Christian that his circumstances are not just sufferings to destruction. Each and every event is used by the Lord. The audience is "those who love the Lord". Far from the theme of "salvation" the context is, "why the loss to those who love the Lord". Why is Joseph in jail when he refused Potiphar's wife? Why is David driven off his inheritance and a fugitive from Saul when he was loyal to Saul, Israel and his God? The answer is, "WE KNOW" ... that ALL things God uses to our good. Why then the fiery trials for "those who love the Lord"?

Because those God FOREKNEW have been predestined to undergo a change of DISPOSITION. They love the Lord already. Why then the suffering? Because, like Peter, their love is insufficient and immature. They still tend to betray the Lord. Their love must be tempered by fire. Their confession must be strong and direct LIKE Christ's. And not only in love must they be like Christ, but in all aspects of their disposition. TO THIS we are predestined. That is, once you are in the Lord's CAMP, then a process begins - a process where a man or woman has his/her character changed.

God's councils are immutable. What He set out to do in Genesis 1:26-28 will be accomplished. God wants men and women who are IN HIS IMAGE to rule this earth. His royal family must be CHANGED from what Adam produced. The human spirit must undergo a new birth and so the born-again are fitted to see the kingdom. On resurrection day the new body is made to be fit for the kingdom (1st Cor.15:50-54). And the transforming of the soul must be accomplished. 2nd Peter 1:2-11 gives the process.

v.2 - God's KNOWLEDGE is the source of blessing
v.3 - God's KNOWLEDGE is the basis of His calling us "to virtue"
v.4 - the journey starts with God imparting "divine life" through a rebirth
v.5 - Then come "OUR EFFORT". "WE" must add virtue
v.11 - WHAT FOR? For an entrance into the kingdom

Will all Christians achieve this by the day of the judgment? No! There will be some who "do NOT make their election and calling sure" (v.10). Will those Christians who are barren and unfruitful have "entrance" into the Kingdom? No! Is it matter of "entrance to the Lake of Fire"? NO! But like the foolish Virgins they did not "buy" extra oil in their lifetime and are excluded from the Kingdom. They are sons of God but they are disinherited. Only those who ADDED VIRTUE are qualified. Why? Because God requires men and women IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST.

Romans 8 is not about being saved from the Lake of Fire. Romans 8 is about saved men and women entering a process whereby they are CONFORMED DISPOSITIONALLY to the image of Christ. It is to THIS that we are predestined.

Copy to @Selah7

In spite of your insulting insinuation about my abilities in English, which are well above average, for your information, your comments about Romans 8 are utterly devoid of sense.

Rom. 8:28-39 (KJV)

  28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
  29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
  32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
  33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
  34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
  35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
  36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
  37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
  38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
  39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

 

---I have never before come across a Christian who does not realise that verses 28-30 refer to vital elements of salvation.  I have met Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Independent Evangelicals, Charismatics, etc.; but, in all my years of being saved (since 1985), you are first one who has not understood that foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all necessary links, in the chain of salvation.

I'm staggered that any genuine Christian could so misunderstand such a well-known and well understood passage.  Please feel free to quote any reputable commentaries that say that Rom. 8:28-30 is not about elements of salvation.

Edited October 6, 2022 by David1701