Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[OneLight]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you saying these are those who were resurrected when the 'graves' were opened?  Jesus being the firstfruits 'of them that slept?  Or some other group from some other time?

This is 2 posts in a row I am not following, so rather than go any further now, I   will go and study those Chapters and come back later.   
 

May I suggest that you look at the differences, not the similarities.  For the 144,000, there are special requirements for this group of people that are not so for the rest of us.  Start there to see why they are two different groups and not taken from the main group of believers.

[OneLight]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I should have been more clear.  It's not that they don't see it, but they only emphasize the "rapture", that trip to heaven.

"Despite when people think the rapture will occur, all scripture really tells us about this event, as for where we will go, is "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "

Obviously this is about the Second Advent when Jesus brings all of the dead saints that have already gone to heaven, and they receive their glorified bodies before the living ones do.

Here's something to think on.  If no sin can enter into the presence of God, and believers had not yet been changed, how can they enter heaven as you say "Jesus brings all of the dead saints that have already gone to heaven"?  We do read of a group of believers who wait "under the alter", but what does that mean "under the alter"?  Is the grave considered "under the alter"?   What are they waiting for and what's next for them? Scripture does not say.  If our spirits automatically go to heaven, then what is the need for: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:53)?  We can also ask what is meant by "sleep" as read in 1 Corinthians 15:51?

I know I asked a bunch of questions, but the answer to these questions may help.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

"Now, unless Jesus will never again go into heaven, which I doubt, being God, He will go everywhere, so I don't agree with your second statement, or challenge."

I base my view on what Scripture says.

Acts 3:21 -  Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, retain" literally.  And my previous edition NIV Bible says "Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes...".

Once He comes back at the Second Advent, having emptied heaven of all saints, He reigns in the MK until the GWT judgment and then the new heavens and earth.

I don't see any scenario where He returns to heaven.  In fact, those believers who "are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" won't ever go to heaven.  Heaven will come down to earth; the new earth.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts on the latter is that words have many meanings.  Though these different meanings may be similar, they are different, otherwise there would be just one meaning.  Even the simplest definition of G1209 states more than your two meanings, so may I suggest expanding your word study deeper. 

I would also suggest looking more into what the restoration of everything means as this is the timeline spoken about.  Is this the Second Coming of Jesus or the creation of the new heaven and new earth?  Review Revelation 20 & 21 again.

About your statement "Once He comes back at the Second Advent, having emptied heaven of all the saints, He reigns in the MK until the GWT judgment and then the new heavens and earth."  Are you trying to say that this is why Jesus is not in heaven during the thousand years, and more?  Once again I suggest you review Revelation 20:4-6.  There is no statement telling us that Jesus is restricted from heaven, nor that Jesus remains solely on earth during the 1000 years.

Now, your last statement really puzzles me.  You say that those who are alive and remain won't ever go to heaven.  Where do you find this in scripture?  Now, earlier you say that those who are dead in Christ are already in heaven, yet those who are alive and remain will never see heaven, while scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Scripture shows that the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are brought together in the clouds to meet the Lord.  Now, if they come together, they must be in the same place.  If this is true, and it is, either they all are in heaven or nobody is in heaven yet.

I'll be honest with you.  When I began my life in Christ, I accepted everything a preacher would say as truth.  I had no reason, at that time, to doubt a preacher, until I realized that preachers didn't agree on several matters, so I began searching scripture for myself.  What I found was what is being preached is more about a theory and not so much about what is written.  They start with scripture, but expand onto personal beliefs to "fill in the gaps" where scripture is silent, or to push a denominational doctrine, which is always questionable at best.    It's mans theology that divides His body, even more so as His time approaches.

We need to have a solid foundation in scripture and not add to, nor take away from what scripture tells us.  Since scripture does not contradict itself, where are the contradictions coming from?  It comes from when we expand our theories outside of scripture, trying to answer a bunch of "what if's" when scripture is silent, but we still have questions.

Well, you did ask for my thoughts ...

[OneLight]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

By the time Jesus comes back to earth, the vast majority of church age saints will have already died and gone to heaven.  So those who will be alive and remain will only be a small fraction of "the church".  A very small fraction.  Sorry for my confusion.

Yet, that is not what scripture tells us.  That is what man tells us.  Let's see what scripture does say.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Crinthians 15:50-54

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Where do you read in scripture that the dead in Christ are already in heaven???

[missmuffet]

12 hours ago, OneLight said:

In all honesty, I gave up reading books about the bible in the 80's.  The last was The Late Great Planet Earth.  I now stick to scripture because all else are just theories people have through their own personal studies.  If it's in the bible, God will show it to me.

There are excellent Bible scholars in this world. They can teach us what we need to know about the Bible. God has given these teachers this gift. But a person needs to be very careful and not choose false teachers. Mark Hitchcock is not a false teacher. Do you think that God wants us to understand His Words?

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

No, I want to keep the discussion open to all and with you.  I was just objecting to the inference that I was twisting and otherwise contorting scripture just to make a point.  Making inferences like that seems like a way to shut down someone else's presentation in an ad hominin manner.

Peace brother.

If you read my post again, you will see that I never once inferred to you, but only to myself.  I'm afraid that you took something personal when it was never intended to be about you, but what my thoughts were of myself.  Here is the post in it's entirety.   Please show me where I was inferring to you in my statement below.

14 hours ago, OneLight said:

Scripture, to the best of my understanding, only speaks of one rapture and one event, not multiple raptures  - multiple events, nor multiple raptures of within the same event. 

Sure, there are questions I'd like answers to, like how did those who are under the alter in Revelation 6:9-11 get there and what is meant by "under the alter" - where is that space?  We can also question when the events of Revelation 7:9 take place as we read about "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" when the trumpets and bowls have not been presented in scripture, better known as tasking place during the "great tribulation"?

Instead of trying to twist events into place so I can come up with some strange theory just to answer these questions, I just accept that God does not make it clear enough to have an answer.  I believe, and accept, that there are things we are just not meant to understand.

[FreeGrace]

2 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Here's something to think on.  If no sin can enter into the presence of God, and believers had not yet been changed, how can they enter heaven as you say "Jesus brings all of the dead saints that have already gone to heaven"? 

 

The answer is that the believers in heaven are sans body.  It is the body that is corrupt and has the "sin nature".  None of that will ever be in heaven.

"We do read of a group of believers who wait "under the alter", but what does that mean "under the alter"?  Is the grave considered "under the alter"?   What are they waiting for and what's next for them? Scripture does not say."

The scene is IN heaven, so these are the souls of believers who have already died.

Remember what Paul said about physical death:  "absent from the body AND present with the Lord"  2 Cor 5:8

"If our spirits automatically go to heaven, then what is the need for: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:53)?  We can also ask what is meant by "sleep" as read in 1 Corinthians 15:51?"

The need is for receiving the glorified resurrection body.  The resurrection body is incorruptible and immortal.  "Sleep" in 1 Cor 15 as well as John 11 regarding Lazarus is physical death.

"I know I asked a bunch of questions, but the answer to these questions may help.

My thoughts on the latter is that words have many meanings.  Though these different meanings may be similar, they are different, otherwise there would be just one meaning.  Even the simplest definition of G1209 states more than your two meanings, so may I suggest expanding your word study deeper. 

I would also suggest looking more into what the restoration of everything means as this is the timeline spoken about.  Is this the Second Coming of Jesus or the creation of the new heaven and new earth?  Review Revelation 20 & 21 again."

I wish you had included the English word for G1209.  Then I could comment.

Acts 3:21 refers to the MK.  That is when Jesus restores everything, as He is the perfect King of kings.

"About your statement "Once He comes back at the Second Advent, having emptied heaven of all the saints, He reigns in the MK until the GWT judgment and then the new heavens and earth."  Are you trying to say that this is why Jesus is not in heaven during the thousand years, and more?  Once again I suggest you review Revelation 20:4-6.  There is no statement telling us that Jesus is restricted from heaven, nor that Jesus remains solely on earth during the 1000 years."

Yes, Jesus rules EARTH during the MK.  You tell me WHY He would need or want to go to heaven during His reign on earth?  And how does Rev 20:4-6 relate to Jesus supposedly being in heaven during the MK?  Where does the battle of Gog and Magog occur?  Not heaven, but on earth, where Jesus obviously (or should be) is reigning.

There doesn't need to be a statement "restricting Jesus from heaven".  But how would He reign ON earth if not ON earth?  You tell me.

"Now, your last statement really puzzles me.  You say that those who are alive and remain won't ever go to heaven.  Where do you find this in scripture?  Now, earlier you say that those who are dead in Christ are already in heaven, yet those who are alive and remain will never see heaven, while scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, He will reign ON earth during the MK.  This is when the singular resurrection of ALL believers occurs, per 1 Cor 15:23.  Since that is true, and Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints that have been in heaven, that clearly shows that Jesus empties heaven of all the dead saints, taking them to earth to receive their glorified bodies.  All the living believers when Jesus returns also receive "changed" (glorified) bodies, after the dead receive theirs, per 1 Thess 4.  Then ALL of them stay with Jesus, who will reign ON earth for 1,000 years.  So the living believers will never enter the 3rd heaven.

"Scripture shows that the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are brought together in the clouds to meet the Lord.  Now, if they come together, they must be in the same place.  If this is true, and it is, either they all are in heaven or nobody is in heaven yet."

It is clear:  the living believers join with Jesus and the dead saints, where all receive glorified bodies.  What the passage doesn't say is that Jesus begins His rule over the MK at that time, but is inferred from v.15 - According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

All references to "the coming" of the Lord refer to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesies of only 2 advents of Jesus.

"I'll be honest with you.  When I began my life in Christ, I accepted everything a preacher would say as truth.  I had no reason, at that time, to doubt a preacher, until I realized that preachers didn't agree on several matters, so I began searching scripture for myself.  What I found was what is being preached is more about a theory and not so much about what is written.  They start with scripture, but expand onto personal beliefs to "fill in the gaps" where scripture is silent, or to push a denominational doctrine, which is always questionable at best.    It's mans theology that divides His body, even more so as His time approaches."

Good!  Sounds as though you are being a Berean, per Acts 17:11.  Everything I've told you was accompanied by a verse that SAYS what I SAY.  But it's up to you to recognize that and believe that.

Can you show me any "gaps" that I have "filled in" that isn't in Scripture?

"Well, you did ask for my thoughts ..."

And I appreciate that you answered!  Thanks.  Now, for the questions I have asked...

[farouk]

The Lord's Supper brings us the truth of the rapture of the church, 1 Corinthians 11.26.............

[Alive]

Is there a place in scripture that shows a human without a body?

[OneLight]

5 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

There are excellent Bible scholars in this world. They can teach us what we need to know about the Bible. God has given these teachers this gift. But a person needs to be very careful and not choose false teachers. Mark Hitchcock is not a false teacher. Do you think that God wants us to understand His Words?

Yes, what you say is true to an extent, but when you choose which are good teachers and which are not, how do you do this?  I would like to think this is done by taking what they are saying and searching the scripture to see if they are true or not.  If this is the case, may I suggest that you already have a teacher that helps you understand scripture?  John 14:26 tells us:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Yes, others may give us ideas we've not been exposed to before, or place things in a certain order we have not considered, but do we just take their word for it and not do our own research?  When, and if, we do our own research, Who then becomes our teacher??

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I said:  "

By the time Jesus comes back to earth, the vast majority of church age saints will have already died and gone to heaven.  So those who will be alive and remain will only be a small fraction of "the church".  A very small fraction.  Sorry for my confusion."

Yet, that is not what scripture tells us.  That is what man tells us.  Let's see what scripture does say.

Aren't you aware of WHEN the resurrection of believers will occur in the timeline of history?  If you are, then what I said cannot be false.  We've already had aver 2,000 years of saints who have died, plus ALL the OT saints, all of whom are in heaven awaiting the trip to earth with Jesus per Rev 19.

"1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

First, there is no mention of Jesus taking anyone back to heaven.  That's crucial to the pre-trip rapture theory.  And there are no verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

"1 Crinthians 15:50-54

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Where do you read in scripture that the dead in Christ are already in heaven???"

Rev 6:9 SHOWS believers in heaven.  Where do you think Christians who have died are?  I'm a bit puzzled by these questions.