Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, farouk said:

The Lord's Supper brings us the truth of the rapture of the church, 1 Corinthians 11.26.............

Could you expand on that, please?

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

Is there a place in scripture that shows a human without a body?

James 2:26

[Alive]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

James 2:26

I dont see James saying this. How did a body become a living soul…a human being.

[missmuffet]

13 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Yes, what you say is true to an extent, but when you choose which are good teachers and which are not, how do you do this?  I would like to think this is done by taking what they are saying and searching the scripture to see if they are true or not.  If this is the case, may I suggest that you already have a teacher that helps you understand scripture?  John 14:26 tells us:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Yes, others may give us ideas we've not been exposed to before, or place things in a certain order we have not considered, but do we just take their word for it and not do our own research?  When, and if, we do our own research, Who then becomes our teacher??

You definitely want to compare what they say to the Scriptures and a good teacher would invite you to do that. The danger in not choosing to go with a person who has been studying scripture for years and understands more than we do is going on our own understanding and chances are we will be wrong. Do you think God wants that? I think there is some pride in a person who thinks they know more than a gifted Bible scholar.

The Late Great Planet Earth is not a very good comparison to a Bible Study by a trusted Bible scholar. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by missmuffet

[missmuffet]

20 minutes ago, Alive said:

I dont see James saying this. How did a body become a living soul…a human being.

You are right. James 2:26 deals with faith vs works. 

[farouk]

28 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Could you expand on that, please?

The passage there brings out the special connection between the church (Pentecost having marked the church's birthday) and the rapture; by definition it is the church as opposed to any other entity which Scripturally observes the Lord's Supper.

Edited November 20, 2022 by farouk
clarification

[Alive]

““But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.””

(Matthew 26:29 NAS95)

[Alive]

“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”

(1 Corinthians 15:22–28 NAS95)

[OneLight]

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The answer is that the believers in heaven are sans body.  It is the body that is corrupt and has the "sin nature".  None of that will ever be in heaven.

"We do read of a group of believers who wait "under the alter", but what does that mean "under the alter"?  Is the grave considered "under the alter"?   What are they waiting for and what's next for them? Scripture does not say."

The scene is IN heaven, so these are the souls of believers who have already died.

Remember what Paul said about physical death:  "absent from the body AND present with the Lord"  2 Cor 5:8

"If our spirits automatically go to heaven, then what is the need for: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:53)?  We can also ask what is meant by "sleep" as read in 1 Corinthians 15:51?"

The need is for receiving the glorified resurrection body.  The resurrection body is incorruptible and immortal.  "Sleep" in 1 Cor 15 as well as John 11 regarding Lazarus is physical death.

I'd like to address this as a whole since it all pertains to the same subject, spirits in heaven.  Have you asked yourself why we would need to have spiritual body if our spirit is already in heaven?  What is the purpose of a spiritual body?  And why is it so important to even consider the word sleep when talking about those who have died in Christ, as the body decays and that flesh is not resurrected, but we are given a new spiritual body. 

Yes, it becomes a bit more difficult to support personal theology when we look at the whole picture at the same time.

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

"I know I asked a bunch of questions, but the answer to these questions may help.

My thoughts on the latter is that words have many meanings.  Though these different meanings may be similar, they are different, otherwise there would be just one meaning.  Even the simplest definition of G1209 states more than your two meanings, so may I suggest expanding your word study deeper. 

I would also suggest looking more into what the restoration of everything means as this is the timeline spoken about.  Is this the Second Coming of Jesus or the creation of the new heaven and new earth?  Review Revelation 20 & 21 again."

I wish you had included the English word for G1209.  Then I could comment.

If you want to see what Strong's Concordance says, which is the simplest I use, you can use this site: https://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

I say that is the simplest I use because I would rather dig deeper than what is given there by using  a word study dictionary for both Hebrew and Greek.  These dictionaries go much deeper in understanding.  I personally use The Complete Word Study Dictionaries.  There are others that are just as good, but I came upon these first and purchased then.  It would take most of this page to type out what the dictionary says about this one word.

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Acts 3:21 refers to the MK.  That is when Jesus restores everything, as He is the perfect King of kings.

"About your statement "Once He comes back at the Second Advent, having emptied heaven of all the saints, He reigns in the MK until the GWT judgment and then the new heavens and earth."  Are you trying to say that this is why Jesus is not in heaven during the thousand years, and more?  Once again I suggest you review Revelation 20:4-6.  There is no statement telling us that Jesus is restricted from heaven, nor that Jesus remains solely on earth during the 1000 years."

Yes, Jesus rules EARTH during the MK.  You tell me WHY He would need or want to go to heaven during His reign on earth?  And how does Rev 20:4-6 relate to Jesus supposedly being in heaven during the MK?  Where does the battle of Gog and Magog occur?  Not heaven, but on earth, where Jesus obviously (or should be) is reigning.

There doesn't need to be a statement "restricting Jesus from heaven".  But how would He reign ON earth if not ON earth?  You tell me.

Jesus is God, yes?  God can rule from anywhere.  Jesus does not need to physically be here to rule.  If Jesus were human, than yes, as a human He would have to be present to rule, but He is God and is everywhere at the same time.  The onus is not for me to explain why God can rule from heaven, but on those who claim He needs to be physically present, separated from Heaven, to rule earth.

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

"Now, your last statement really puzzles me.  You say that those who are alive and remain won't ever go to heaven.  Where do you find this in scripture?  Now, earlier you say that those who are dead in Christ are already in heaven, yet those who are alive and remain will never see heaven, while scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, He will reign ON earth during the MK.  This is when the singular resurrection of ALL believers occurs, per 1 Cor 15:23.  Since that is true, and Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints that have been in heaven, that clearly shows that Jesus empties heaven of all the dead saints, taking them to earth to receive their glorified bodies.  All the living believers when Jesus returns also receive "changed" (glorified) bodies, after the dead receive theirs, per 1 Thess 4.  Then ALL of them stay with Jesus, who will reign ON earth for 1,000 years.  So the living believers will never enter the 3rd heaven.

You are repeating what you previously said without providing scripture as I asked.  You make a lot of claims that I cannot find in scripture, which is why I keep asking for scripture from you to support what you claim to be true.

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

"Scripture shows that the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are brought together in the clouds to meet the Lord.  Now, if they come together, they must be in the same place.  If this is true, and it is, either they all are in heaven or nobody is in heaven yet."

It is clear:  the living believers join with Jesus and the dead saints, where all receive glorified bodies.  What the passage doesn't say is that Jesus begins His rule over the MK at that time, but is inferred from v.15 - According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

All references to "the coming" of the Lord refer to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesies of only 2 advents of Jesus.

Scripture tells us "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words."

I understand that there are many who believe in a secret return of Jesus for His church, separate from His birth and Second Coming.  Those who believe this use the idea of the thief in the night analogy to mean a secret appearance to those who are His and the world never knows that it is happening, but tell me, how can the whole world not hear a shout with the of an archangel and God's trumpet call?  I'd suggest that thief in the night means the world is not prepared or even have a slightest inclination He is coming at the time He comes.  Could this be because before He returns, there must first be a falling away?

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

"I'll be honest with you.  When I began my life in Christ, I accepted everything a preacher would say as truth.  I had no reason, at that time, to doubt a preacher, until I realized that preachers didn't agree on several matters, so I began searching scripture for myself.  What I found was what is being preached is more about a theory and not so much about what is written.  They start with scripture, but expand onto personal beliefs to "fill in the gaps" where scripture is silent, or to push a denominational doctrine, which is always questionable at best.    It's mans theology that divides His body, even more so as His time approaches."

Good!  Sounds as though you are being a Berean, per Acts 17:11.  Everything I've told you was accompanied by a verse that SAYS what I SAY.  But it's up to you to recognize that and believe that.

Can you show me any "gaps" that I have "filled in" that isn't in Scripture?

"Well, you did ask for my thoughts ..."

And I appreciate that you answered!  Thanks.  Now, for the questions I have asked...

If you had accompanied your words with scripture, I would have no reason to ask you to support your statements with scripture, so I disagree that you have done such.

As for the gaps, I have been showing you them all along.  Are you reading my words to understand what I am saying, or just reviewing what I say in reference to your beliefs?

As for your questions.  I'm sorry, but I thought I had answered them.  Which ones did you ask that you feel went unanswered?  Ask them again and I will provide an answer, if scripture gives an answer.

 

[farouk]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you saying these are those who were resurrected when the 'graves' were opened?  Jesus being the firstfruits 'of them that slept?  Or some other group from some other time?

This is 2 posts in a row I am not following, so rather than go any further now, I   will go and study those Chapters and come back later.   
 

Interestingly in the Old Testament commentators say that the feast of firstfruits points forward to the Resurrection.....