Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

First. Let me assist you so you don't have to quote in red. If you want to quote a sentence or paragraph or a group of paragraphs, just put the cursor behind the last word you want to quote, and HIT ENTER TWICE fairly fast. You then can answer. if you don't hit enter twice fairly fast it will just space down. Hope that helps.

Nope.  Didn't help.  I tried just before the "h" and after the "s" but neither worked.

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

So if you know the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth, you are halfway home.

You still don't get it. I am not claiming that redeemed means resurrected. I am claiming that it means raptured from the to heaven as we see the 144,000 before the throne.

Duh.  Just figured it out.  (or followed your instructions correctly.    Thanks so much.  I wasn't all that thrilled with all that cut and paste and coloring. 

Trying to figure out your last sentence:  "raptured from the to heaven".  

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

In the Word of God first fruits means first fruits of a future harvest. Christ rose from the dead and became the 1st fruits of those that sleep. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. Being first fruits means they rose from the dead and they are the first fruits of the harvest.

Do you believe in "soul sleep", since you mention 'sleep' so much?  There is no evidence of multiple harvests in the end times.  Do you believer there are "harvests" without resurrections?

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

 

No you have absolutely not shown that. All you have shown is that any righteous that are raised are part of the resurrection to life, which is considered the first resurrection. It does not mean that there is only one resurrection to life.

Well, we will agree to disagree.  The Bible only speaks of resurrection in the singular, for both the saved and the unsaved.  And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST resurrection is at the Second Advent which is for the saved, and there is another resurrection 1,000 years later, for the unsaved.

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

Rapture means caught up from the earth to be with the Lord.

I already showed you there is a coming of Jesus at the sixth seal. I can't help that you have no oil in your lamp.

OK, so you do believe that "rapture" means taken from earth to heaven.  However, every believer who dies goes immediately to heaven, and that isn't a "rapture".  The word has always been defined as being part of a pretribulation resurrection where all the living and dead saints get new glorified bodies and are taken to heaven.

The SDA believe in "soul sleep", that the saved who die sleep in the grave, apparently still in their carcass.  But Paul was very clear about what happens when a believer dies.  

2 cor 5:8 - Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

To be "at home with the Lord" doesn't mean sleeping with the Lord.  And the "souls under the altar are believers that have died and are in heaven with the Lord awaiting the Second Advent, when they accompany Christ to earth and receive their glorified body.

[The Light]

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Duh.  Just figured it out.  (or followed your instructions correctly.    Thanks so much.  I wasn't all that thrilled with all that cut and paste and coloring. 

I knew you were taking a beating cutting, pasting and coloring.

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you believe in "soul sleep", since you mention 'sleep' so much?

No.

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 There is no evidence of multiple harvests in the end times.  Do you believer there are "harvests" without resurrections?

Yes there are multiple harvests. The fig tree has two harvests.

As to the harvests without resurrections, no I don't think so. I do thing the dead in Christ will rise 50 days before the alive believers will be caught up, but I think that there will likely be some dead in those 50 days that rise.

 

[The Light]

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Well, we will agree to disagree.  The Bible only speaks of resurrection in the singular, for both the saved and the unsaved.  And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST resurrection is at the Second Advent which is for the saved, and there is another resurrection 1,000 years later, for the unsaved.

Ok. But I showed you the rapture at the 6th seal which is not the second advent.

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, so you do believe that "rapture" means taken from earth to heaven.  However, every believer who dies goes immediately to heaven, and that isn't a "rapture".  The word has always been defined as being part of a pretribulation resurrection where all the living and dead saints get new glorified bodies and are taken to heaven.

The SDA believe in "soul sleep", that the saved who die sleep in the grave, apparently still in their carcass.  But Paul was very clear about what happens when a believer dies.  

Agreed

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

2 cor 5:8 - Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

To be "at home with the Lord" doesn't mean sleeping with the Lord.  And the "souls under the altar are believers that have died and are in heaven with the Lord awaiting the Second Advent, when they accompany Christ to earth and receive their glorified body.

Agreed.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course I'm aware of the contradictions and errors of modern evangelicals.  When people argue for "multiple raptures" and we know that resurrection always goes with "rapture", I see it as arguing for a pre-trib idea.  

Since you don't believe in a pretrib rapture, why do you push for "multiple raptures"?

"The doctrine of the modern evangelicals is based on a flaw. It presupposes that the DEAD HAVE ALREADY RISEN. This is not the case for the dead IN Christ RISE BEFORE the Living are caught away BUT are caught away TOGETHER. Notice the wording: It is, verse 14, "... even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"

It does not say "... even so them also which ARE ALIVE in Jesus will God bring with him"

Those that Christ brings with Him are those which NOW STILL SLEEP!"

OK, I think I see the issue here.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you believe in "soul sleep"; that when a person dies, their soul sleeps and there is no consciousness.

"The rest of your answer shows, as I said, that we are not far apart. The only point I would take up is that of the glorified body. You are not wrong in your statements but scripture says that ALL MEN will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), and which is fulfilled at the White Throne. But 1st Corinthians 15, starting at verse 35, takes this into account and speaks of ALL bodies having a glory - just different. That is, HITLER will no doubt be cast into the Lake of Fire, but his BODY is TERRESTRIAL with a differing glory to others. It is not only Christians who receive a resurrection body that has glory."

Yes, EVERYONE will be resurrected; both the saved and the unsaved.  3 verses say so clearly:  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  However ONLY the saved will receive an immortal body, a glorified body, just like the resurrection body of Jesus.  The unsaved only get back into their mortal bodies that God will raise and they will stand before the GWT judgment and then be cast into the LOF.  Do you know why the LOF is also called the "second death"?

"The rest of your answer shows, as I said, that we are not far apart. The only point I would take up is that of the glorified body. You are not wrong in your statements but scripture says that ALL MEN will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), and which is fulfilled at the White Throne. But 1st Corinthians 15, starting at verse 35, takes this into account and speaks of ALL bodies having a glory - just different. That is, HITLER will no doubt be cast into the Lake of Fire, but his BODY is TERRESTRIAL with a differing glory to others. It is not only Christians who receive a resurrection body that has glory."

I will await for your answer to why the LOF is also called the second death.

"It's 2 a.m. here so I'm turning in, but its been very stimulating to swap ideas with you. I'll pick up again tomorrow.

God bless."

I really enjoy discussing Scripture!  Thanks for the "swap".

God bless you too!

I’m away for a few days and only have a primitive IPad, hence my brief answer.

Scripture refers to them asleep, but scripture is very consistent. When it talks of „sleep“ it means the body - not the soul. Resurrection is for the body.

My position on the rapture is a minority view that it is a harvest. Those ripe, or Overcomers, or mature - call them what you like, will be rewarded by the „Prize“ of a pre-Tribulation rapture. At least four scriptures give the bulk of living Christians passing through the Great Tribulation (e.g. Rev.7:9-17). Their garments were dirty. Then, I take the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 and those of 20:4-6 to be the gleanings. I defy any thought of a general pre-Tribulation rapture. Philippians 3:10-14, Luke 21:35-36, Matthew :24 and Revelation 3:10 and the Man-Child of Revelation 12 indicate an escape - but CONDITIONALLY.

“Many are called but few are chosen“.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

No.

Yes there are multiple harvests. The fig tree has two harvests.

As to the harvests without resurrections, no I don't think so. I do thing the dead in Christ will rise 50 days before the alive believers will be caught up, but I think that there will likely be some dead in those 50 days that rise.

Glad to hear you don't believe in "soul sleep".  Where does one find evidence that the Bible describes or defines a resurrection as a harvest?

Since you believe that all harvests are connected with a resurrection, how do you explain 1 Cor 15:23?  The verse is very clear.  All believers will be resurrected when Jesus comes, which is the Second Advent.  How do you find 50 days between the dead being resurrected before the living?  How does 1 Thess 4 support that?

Thanks.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Ok. But I showed you the rapture at the 6th seal which is not the second advent.

Well, here is the 6th seal, from Rev 6:

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 

13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 

14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 

16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 

17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I don't see any rapture here.  What I do find is a huge earthquake that affects every island and mountain.  Sounds a lot like a global earthquake.

What I also find very interesting is that Rev 11:17 has an earthquake:  "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm."  This is the 7th trumpet judgment.

Then, Rev 16:20 - 

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 

18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 

19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 

20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 

21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.  This is the 7th bowl judgment.

So, an earthquake at the 6th seal that moves EVERY island and mountain, an earthquake at the 7th trumpet with an earthquake and SEVERE hailstorm, and an earthquake at the 7th bowl also that moves every island and mountain, and accompanied by a SEVERE hailstorm.

Also seems like the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are the same event.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I’m away for a few days and only have a primitive IPad, hence my brief answer.

Scripture refers to them asleep, but scripture is very consistent. When it talks of „sleep“ it means the body - not the soul. Resurrection is for the body.

My position on the rapture is a minority view that it is a harvest. Those ripe, or Overcomers, or mature - call them what you like, will be rewarded by the „Prize“ of a pre-Tribulation rapture. At least four scriptures give the bulk of living Christians passing through the Great Tribulation (e.g. Rev.7:9-17). Their garments were dirty. Then, I take the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 and those of 20:4-6 to be the gleanings. I defy any thought of a general pre-Tribulation rapture. Philippians 3:10-14, Luke 21:35-36, Matthew :24 and Revelation 3:10 and the Man-Child of Revelation 12 indicate an escape - but CONDITIONALLY.

“Many are called but few are chosen“.

Good afternoon (here anyway) AdHoc,

Okay, from this post, I better understand your stance and view of the Rapture(s) as harvests and rewards. Yes, I would say it is a minority view. I thought I had heard all the views, and I was wrong. This is the first time I have encountered this thought and interpretation. No wonder I was having such a hard time understanding your exegesis. 😊

So, to clarify, you defy any general pre-tribulation Rapture of the bride of Christ (church) as a collective. Am I correct in what you have been saying?

·         You believe the Rapture is a reward, like a crown.

·         Not every born-again believer will escape the wrath of God.

·         Not every born-again believer will enter the millennial kingdom.

Not to be nosey, but does your view align with any denomination I could compare with? Did you say you were a Biblical scholar in a previous post, or am I mistaken? I do not doubt that at all from everything you have written.

Would you share where you attended Bible college, seminary, and credentials? I do not mean to put you on the spot, but I am interested in where and how you developed your theology and minority view on a few topics.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I’m away for a few days and only have a primitive IPad, hence my brief answer.

Scripture refers to them asleep, but scripture is very consistent. When it talks of „sleep“ it means the body - not the soul. Resurrection is for the body.

Good.  The soul doesn't sleep.  

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

My position on the rapture is a minority view that it is a harvest. Those ripe, or Overcomers, or mature - call them what you like, will be rewarded by the „Prize“ of a pre-Tribulation rapture.

Is there clear Scriptural evidence of this?  I fully agree that mature believers will be rewarded for their service, but what evidence?

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

At least four scriptures give the bulk of living Christians passing through the Great Tribulation (e.g. Rev.7:9-17). Their garments were dirty. Then, I take the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 and those of 20:4-6 to be the gleanings. I defy any thought of a general pre-Tribulation rapture. Philippians 3:10-14, Luke 21:35-36, Matthew :24 and Revelation 3:10 and the Man-Child of Revelation 12 indicate an escape - but CONDITIONALLY.

“Many are called but few are chosen“.

So you apply Matt 22:14 to a rapture??  The context is the wedding supper.  The wording of Rev 19 shows the Bride getting ready for it, and in the next breath we read about King Jesus with His army, arrayed in the same clothes as the wedding guests, coming to earth.  Rev 20 beings with Christ on earth, having set up His MK.

It seems most reasonable to me that the wedding supper will be one great shindig which launches the MK. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Also seems like the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are the same event.

The 6th seal is not the 7th trumpet or 7th bowl. The trumpets are the wrath of God. The wrath of God cannot begin until the 7th seal is opened. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period. When the tribulation is over Jesus comes, remains in the clouds and there is a harvest.

This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The harvest occurs and then the wrath of God begins

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Diaste]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:51 AM, The Light said:

The time is running very short. It would be wise to be watching and be ready as we are told that directly. Will he appear to those that say the master has delayed his coming?

Hebrews 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Of course. We should watch. But that means we must watch for something. What is that something we should be watching for?

I may be nuts but I feel it's very hard to watch for something secret and invisible.