Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Is this a resurrection?

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Yes, this is the SECOND resurrection, referred to in Rev 20:5, and is the resurrection of the unsaved.  All of them will be cast into the LOF.

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Exactly!  So please share the verses when you explain things.

I hope that isn't the answer to the question.  

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead 3498 shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Who is being raised up?
3498. nekros 
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

If you BELIEVE this
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

yet those raised up when Christ returns ARE 'SUBJECT TO DEATH' 3498
how can they be BELIEVERS/SAVED/IMMORTAL/NEVER DIE/NOT SUBJECT TO THE 2ND DEATH souls?

If you BELIEVE this
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

and it is the 'LIFELESS' that are raised up when Christ returns,

How did they go from NEVER DIE and Follow Him, to lifeless and WAITING for Christ to return  INSTEAD of Following Him as commanded? 

HOW DID THEY BECOME A PART OF THE DEAD?  When did they become a part of the 'waiting' dead?  And if the DEAD don't resurrect who do we rule and reign over for the millennium?  And what about 'them that slept'?  

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those raised up are MORTAL 3498 when Christ returns,

How can they be 'the NEVER DIE who follow Him to be where He is because like Jesus died and rose even so them' who don't fear the 2nd death and so are immortal?


How CAN someone who NEVER DIES 
BE FOUND TO BE
either dead
or lifeless
or 'subject to death'? 

How can someone who Follows Him and returns with Him 'leave Him, go get into the decay coming up from the earth and return to Him in the clouds'?  NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ANYWHERE, HAS EVER, READ ANY SUCH THING,

Only reason for 'putting' the never die amongst the dead is if there is some TRADITION or BELIEF of which it is a requirement, like 'there is only so many resurrections' or something like that in which maybe 1 verse with no second witness could be put forth but only at the expense of the many that prove it wrong, because it isn't written.  Just like pre trib rapture doesn't have a 'taking glorified church' to heaven, there is no verse that has 'spirits descending to join up with dead bodies from the earth at His return to be resurrected out from the dead.  IF THERE WAS IT WOULD JUST BE GIVEN INSTEAD OF RUNNING ALL AROUND IT WITH EVERYTHING ELSE

EITHER we NEVER DIE, or we ARE DEAD.   Either we are saved and go to heaven or we are not and go to hell.  Either we resurrect FROM THE DEAD FLESH AND FOLLOW HIM or we resurrect OUT FROM THE DEAD HAVING GONE TO HELL when He returns. 

WHERE IS IT WRITTEN WE FOLLOW HIM AND THEN UPON RETURNING ARE PUT IN HELL TO RESURRECT OUT FROM THE DEAD? nowhere

It is IMPOSSIBLE to NEVER DIE AND BE DEAD AT THE SAME TIME.  

BUT 'WHAT' KEEPS BEING PUT FORTH ISN'T WRITTEN AT ALL BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE TO LOOK LIKE THIS

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE NEVER DIE shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, this is the SECOND resurrection, referred to in Rev 20:5, and is the resurrection of the unsaved.  All of them will be cast into the LOF.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Then WHO are these 'dead' who are judged at the end of the 1000 years, some of whom will have their NAMES FOUND in the book of life

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We know they will be judged according to their WORKS and NOT THEIR FAITH so none of these 'dead' were ever SAVED through faith. SO their WORKS had to have come during the Millennium.

(then again, if they had been 'saved and never died' they wouldn't be 'the dead' being 'judged' here, they would be those who sat on the throne judging and ruling and reigning with Christ, having been judged by Christ when they died and followed Him)


but BEFORE this resurrection, you believe to be the '2nd resurrection'?

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And I agree these are THE REST of the dead 
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. 


 

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Exactly!  So please share the verses when you explain things.

I tried to get all I could think of, but if there is anything else you would like Scripture for, please let me know and I will provide it.


We know that no dead bodies are raised up, just 'spiritual bodies raised imperishable' (except in the lake of fire)

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

We know those raised up 'out from the dead/out of the corruption/from hell'
will NOT RECEIVE their immortality (UNTIL the GWTJ when the dead are judged for their works, not faith never having been saved, which I addressed in the previous post)

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


 

We know EVERYONE will bear a spiritual body

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

We know that 1 Corinthians 15 is not just about the saved as both the saved and unsaved are spoken of

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as IN Adam all die, even so IN Christ shall all be made alive.

 

We know in the resurrection of the dead, they are raised up in glory when the flesh body dies

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

There is a 'resurrection' OF the dead aka flesh body dies (as in Adam all die), but because they NEVER DIE the sowing of their flesh body produces the bare grain that is QUICKENED, and body is GIVEN by God to Follow Him, and one day to return with Him 

THEN there is a resurrection OUT FROM THE DEAD of which CHRIST was the FIRST (because HE DESCENDED into the place of the DEAD, He didn't descend into the place of the NEVER DIE)

AND not only the FIRST, but the FIRST FRUIT of them that slept.  THEY DIED AND were dead BECAUSE they 'HAD unforgiven sin' and were under the law and had not received the gift of salvation like we, who NEVER DIE do.  



 

And when He ascended, He led the captivity captive, just like He said was taking place 'this day' when He read the scroll in the temple.  

Eph 4:8

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

The 'captivity' He led, wasn't of those who were STILL LIVING, it was of those that were sleeping/slept/were dead.  It was the 'last day of the Old Covenant' being in effect, it was also the last day that Gods people had to remain in prison 'under the law' because Jesus the Christ, the Lamb slain had paid the ransom and brought in the New Covenant. 

If there is another group you know of who were around when He descend that He would have 'led' when He ascended, please let me know.
 

And He told us this would be taking place, when He came out of the wilderness, having been tempted by the devil and beginning His ministry in
 

Luke 4

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


 

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

1 Corinth 15  

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And we know they were raised up in their 'spiritual glorified bodies' because it is written
 

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

and 

 42also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How we know those who's graves were opened didn't 'die again' as there are 2 deaths not 3

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Who looks forward to Christ?  those who have been saved
WHO will Christ NOT be 'appearing' to though He will be returning for? Those who die and go to hell, who, like it or not, will be resurrected from their graves, and that is BOTH the just and unjust DEAD, who will be judged in 1000 years after Satan is loosed and the GWTJ comes

Acts 24
15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

THIS is ANOTHER resurrection, it comes after the resurrection of those that slept, whom Christ was the firstfruit of. 
16And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Ever wonder why he had to exercise himself in this subject?

 

 It's always the things we THINK we know TO BE TRUE that ARE NOT that get us into the most trouble 

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:13 KJV

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

ALL, meaning both the SAVED in Christ and the UNSAVED in Christ will be made alive/resurrected/raised up for judgment 

Both the 'alive in Christ' (saved) and the 'dead in Christ (both just and unjust) will be resurrected.  Just not at the same time nor in the same way.  Some keep living on, some die.


Please point out problems and again let me know if I missed any you were specifically looking for.  
 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I hope that isn't the answer to the question.  

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead 3498 shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Who is being raised up?
3498. nekros 
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

If you BELIEVE this
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

yet those raised up when Christ returns ARE 'SUBJECT TO DEATH' 3498
how can they be BELIEVERS/SAVED/IMMORTAL/NEVER DIE/NOT SUBJECT TO THE 2ND DEATH souls?

If you BELIEVE this
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

and it is the 'LIFELESS' that are raised up when Christ returns,

How did they go from NEVER DIE and Follow Him, to lifeless and WAITING for Christ to return  INSTEAD of Following Him as commanded? 

HOW DID THEY BECOME A PART OF THE DEAD?  When did they become a part of the 'waiting' dead?  And if the DEAD don't resurrect who do we rule and reign over for the millennium?  And what about 'them that slept'?  

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those raised up are MORTAL 3498 when Christ returns,

How can they be 'the NEVER DIE who follow Him to be where He is because like Jesus died and rose even so them' who don't fear the 2nd death and so are immortal?


How CAN someone who NEVER DIES 
BE FOUND TO BE
either dead
or lifeless
or 'subject to death'? 

How can someone who Follows Him and returns with Him 'leave Him, go get into the decay coming up from the earth and return to Him in the clouds'?  NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ANYWHERE, HAS EVER, READ ANY SUCH THING,

Only reason for 'putting' the never die amongst the dead is if there is some TRADITION or BELIEF of which it is a requirement, like 'there is only so many resurrections' or something like that in which maybe 1 verse with no second witness could be put forth but only at the expense of the many that prove it wrong, because it isn't written.  Just like pre trib rapture doesn't have a 'taking glorified church' to heaven, there is no verse that has 'spirits descending to join up with dead bodies from the earth at His return to be resurrected out from the dead.  IF THERE WAS IT WOULD JUST BE GIVEN INSTEAD OF RUNNING ALL AROUND IT WITH EVERYTHING ELSE

EITHER we NEVER DIE, or we ARE DEAD.   Either we are saved and go to heaven or we are not and go to hell.  Either we resurrect FROM THE DEAD FLESH AND FOLLOW HIM or we resurrect OUT FROM THE DEAD HAVING GONE TO HELL when He returns. 

WHERE IS IT WRITTEN WE FOLLOW HIM AND THEN UPON RETURNING ARE PUT IN HELL TO RESURRECT OUT FROM THE DEAD? nowhere

It is IMPOSSIBLE to NEVER DIE AND BE DEAD AT THE SAME TIME.  

BUT 'WHAT' KEEPS BEING PUT FORTH ISN'T WRITTEN AT ALL BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE TO LOOK LIKE THIS

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE NEVER DIE shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It seems you just keep asking the same questions about the resurrection.   For example:

"If you BELIEVE this
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

yet those raised up when Christ returns ARE 'SUBJECT TO DEATH' 3498
how can they be BELIEVERS/SAVED/IMMORTAL/NEVER DIE/NOT SUBJECT TO THE 2ND DEATH souls?
If you BELIEVE this
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
and it is the 'LIFELESS' that are raised up when Christ returns,"

When Christ returns, those who are "raised up" meaning RESURRECTED cannot be "subject to death".  Apparently you don't understand what the resurrection even is.  I've gone over this many times yet you still ask these questions.

Then you asked this:  "How did they go from NEVER DIE and Follow Him, to lifeless and WAITING for Christ to return  INSTEAD of Following Him as commanded? "

Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die, and then the judgment.  This means every human being WILL die physically.  It doesn't say they will ONLY die once.  All unbelievers will actually and literally physically die TWICE.  

Or this:  "How can someone who Follows Him and returns with Him 'leave Him, go get into the decay coming up from the earth and return to Him in the clouds'?  NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ANYWHERE, HAS EVER, READ ANY SUCH THING,"

I don't even know where to begin with this question.  It doesn't make any sense and shows that nothing I've explained has been digested at all.

Or this:  "It is IMPOSSIBLE to NEVER DIE AND BE DEAD AT THE SAME TIME."

Jesus was speaking of the FACT that believers have eternal life and won't experience physical death a second time, as all unbelievers will.

[AdHoc]

@George @Roymond @Willa @WilliamL @Uber Genius @Revelation Man @Vine Abider @kenny2212 @FreeGrace

 

Hi you all,

I would like to apologize for not answering you yet. It's the usual. Old age and a stumble - into the shower head first - stitches, and two days in hospital under observation (if only they knew how thick my skull is). At the same time my wife had her Carpal tunnel done on her strong hand, so things move very slowly here. But, praise the Lord, by combining serviceable members of our bodies, were getting along well. The Lord is always faithful and things could have been much worse without his keeping power and love. Neighbors have been fantastic.

I owe you all answers, and I will set to it shortly. The threads have run away while I was languishing, so my answer might be out of sync. I might answer you generally, but this, and the others were great threads and provoked an energetic response. Standby for replies.

Luv Y'all

AdHoc

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@George @Roymond @Willa @WilliamL @Uber Genius @Revelation Man @Vine Abider @kenny2212 @FreeGrace

 

Hi you all,

I would like to apologize for not answering you yet. It's the usual. Old age and a stumble - into the shower head first - stitches, and two days in hospital under observation (if only they knew how thick my skull is). At the same time my wife had her Carpal tunnel done on her strong hand, so things move very slowly here. But, praise the Lord, by combining serviceable members of our bodies, were getting along well. The Lord is always faithful and things could have been much worse without his keeping power and love. Neighbors have been fantastic.

I owe you all answers, and I will set to it shortly. The threads have run away while I was languishing, so my answer might be out of sync. I might answer you generally, but this, and the others were great threads and provoked an energetic response. Standby for replies.

Luv Y'all

AdHoc

Love you brother and sorry to hear you took a fall!  The Lord and Grace is with your spirit and may He be with you and your wife's body as well!

[AdHoc]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:32 PM, FreeGrace said:

Glad to hear you don't believe in "soul sleep".  Where does one find evidence that the Bible describes or defines a resurrection as a harvest?

Since you believe that all harvests are connected with a resurrection, how do you explain 1 Cor 15:23?  The verse is very clear.  All believers will be resurrected when Jesus comes, which is the Second Advent.  How do you find 50 days between the dead being resurrected before the living?  How does 1 Thess 4 support that?

Thanks.

If I say that at the scene of the accident the engine had been separated from the gearbox which now lay in the middle of the road, what are the chances that I speak of a car accident? What other scene on earth has roads and on them machines that have an engine and a gearbox that can only be separated by exceptional release of energy? If God speaks of a sower, a field, and firstfruits, what student will deny that there will be a harvest? And if there is a harvest, then by observation, and by God's Word (e.g. Leviticus 23), what are the chances that there will be a harvest of firstripe, a general harvest a little later and gleaning?

In 1st Corinthians 15:23 it says that we who are Christ's will be resurrected "at His coming". The word "coming" literally means "presence" ("Parousia" - Gk.). It is different to Erchomai (his "arrival") and "Apokalypsis" (His Revealing). The "coming" of our Lord is a series of "presences". He is now "present" above the highest heaven because that is where His Father's Throne is. In a short while, He will be "present" in heaven to receive His throne and crown (Rev. Chapte 4). He continues His downward journey and must pause in the clouds because that is where He meets with His raptured Church. He would have "arrived" (erchomai) in the clouds and be "present" (parousia) when Church arrived in the clouds.

After having judged His Church, and AFTER "the tribulation of those days", our Lord Jesus, Who has been hidden from all except His Church, blasts through the clouds like lightning and touches down on Mount Olives. All around Judah SEE Him. He thus;
(i) Has "arrived" (erchomai) on earth
(ii) He is "present" on earth (parousia)
(iii) He is "revealed" to the world (apokalypsis)

What all this is about it that "His COMING" in 1st Corinthians 15:23 is really His PRESENCE - first in the upper air, the lower air where the clouds are and then on earth is ONE EVENT that may span 10 years. While in the clouds, He gathers His Church. After that He is "present" in Jerusalem and Judah and Armageddon. His PRESENCE encompasses all His activities from arriving in the clouds to gather Israel from the four winds in Matthew 24:31.

More than enough time to have several harvests.

Edited December 19, 2022 by AdHoc
Spelling

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When Christ returns, those who are "raised up" meaning RESURRECTED cannot be "subject to death".  Apparently you don't understand what the resurrection even is.  I've gone over this many times yet you still ask these questions.

I ask because you don't give Chapter and verse.  I give Chapter and verse that stated  EXACTLY that BUT you don't respond to HOW THAT verse is being interpreted WRONG you just keep going back to the one verse you like.  

IF CORRUPTION CAN'T INHERIT IMMORTALITY

And Jesus body didn't see CORRUPTION when He went to HELL

THEN how can a body that is raised out of the corruption, AS YOU CLAIM IT DOES (RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD WHEN HE RETURNS) be receiving IMMORTALITY?



If JESUS is the FIRST of them that slept, then how is it them that SLEPT didn't rise with HIM?   He would have had to have been the FIRST OF ALL WHO EVER SLEPT.  


You keep putting forth ONE resurrection BUT at different times EVEN THOUGH it is written the resurrection is BOTH of the saved and the unsaved.


Those are just 3 things that your over verse doesn't cover yet you wont address them.  GO back over all the posts and you will see you can see the one verse you believe but it is at the blindness to all those that go against it.  WHAT do you do with the verses you have not addressed???   

SO YES, it is true, you have said the same thing over and over again, but you have never addressed or taught what the problem is with the rest.  SO I will keep putting forth those that go against that one verse that you have incorrectly put forward until you address all that come against it so that anyone who does hear your unswerving dedication 'to it making it appear' to be truth, UNTIL you do.  

SO if you 'don't assume' then give me the Scripture that says

SPIRITS ARE RETURNING, GOING AND JOINING UP WITH DECAYING CARCASSES TO BE RAISED IN GLORY JUST TO NEGATE

It is sown in corruption; IT IS RAISED IN GLORY.  

and

The NEVER DIE are resurrected OUT FROM the dead.

[DeighAnn]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

If God speaks of a sower, a field, and firstfruits, what student will deny that there will be a harvest?

The one that says 'let them grow together' until the harvest AND THEN....