Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[WilliamL]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:54 PM, FreeGrace said:

There are no verses describing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  That idea MUST be assumed, presumed, etc.

Rev. 7:9-14 clearly shows them in heaven, which event you fail to explain, other than to simply deny it.

End of discussion for me, because we are just going around in circles.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There is only ONE resurrection of the saved, perf 1 Cor 15:23.  And if that single resurrection occurs before the Tribulation, Rev 20:4 cannot be true.  So you need to figure out your own error.

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is very specific: notice "they that are Christ's..."
How did Paul write it" "The dead in Christ..."

Is not this saying the same thing, just using different words? This LIMITS this resurrection to those that are "in Christ" meaning, born again.  The EXCLUDES all the OT saints. 

In other words, Paul's rapture is limited to only NT saints, those that are born again. No OT saint qualifies for they all died before Christ came.

Please tell me how YOU read this verse.
Please explain why 20:4 mades a pretrib rapture impossible. I don't think it does.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I've quoted the verses that SAY what I SAY, so please figure out that.

btw, truth isn't determined by democracy, but rather, what the Word SAYS.  And I SAY what the Word SAYS.  Unlike you.

Ha ha! That is what EVERYONE says here. Please tell us who YOU read 1 Cor 15:23.

[FreeGrace]

53 minutes ago, OneLight said:

@FreeGrace & @iamlamad

Come on now, let's not turn this into a flame fest.  You've been able to communicate pretty civilly up to now, please don't start with the personal attacks ...

I would appreciate knowing what "personal attacks" there have been.  Thanks.

[FreeGrace]

28 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7:9-14 clearly shows them in heaven, which event you fail to explain, other than to simply deny it.

End of discussion for me, because we are just going around in circles.

There is no mention even the so-called "classic rapture verses" that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  

As for Rev 7, how can anyone prove that these people got there by "rapture"?  All believers go to heaven when they die, and that's not by rapture.  

Before you "end" the discussion, how do you explain the clear biblical teaching about the singular resurrection for all believers (Dan 12:2, John 5:29, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23) and that the resurrection of believers is AT the Second Advent and called the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20:4-6, with the second resurrection, which is for unbelievers, occurring 1,o00 years later, which is after the MK?

That alone precludes any possibility of a pretrib resurrection with rapture to heaven.

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is very specific: notice "they that are Christ's..."
How did Paul write it" "The dead in Christ..."

[The phrase "they that are Christ's" is literally "then those of Christ's".  

So, the question is:  just who are "those of Christ's?  It has to mean every saved person from Adam on.  So the verse plainly teaches that ALL the saved will be given glorified bodies at the Second Advent, which is supported by Rev 20:4-5.]

Is not this saying the same thing, just using different words? This LIMITS this resurrection to those that are "in Christ" meaning, born again.  The EXCLUDES all the OT saints. 

Sure.  Born again is what happens to EVERY believer in the Messiah from Adam on.  iow, ALL the saved from Adam forward will be resurrected/glorified at the same event, which is the Second Advent as Rev 20:4-5 plainly show.

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, Paul's rapture is limited to only NT saints, those that are born again. No OT saint qualifies for they all died before Christ came.

Please tell me how YOU read this verse.
Please explain why 20:4 mades a pretrib rapture impossible. I don't think it does.

Wrong.  The word "Christ" is Greek, and the Hebrew is "Messiah".  So even OT believers are included here.  There is no way to separate out all of the saved people in humanity.  ALL will be glorified "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

Rev 20:4-5 makes any pretrib resurrection impossible because the Bible SAYS there will a resurrection, not multiple ones.  Only one. And one for the lost.  So that's two, total.

And if you do the math of Rev 20:4-5, you will see that the martyrs (saved) will be resurrected at the Second Advent and that resurrection is called the FIRST resurrection.

There's no way around these facts.

Edited December 21, 2022 by FreeGrace

[FreeGrace]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Ha ha! That is what EVERYONE says here. Please tell us who YOU read 1 Cor 15:23.

Do you mean HOW I read 1 Cor 15:23?  Sure.  Jesus Christ is the very first human being to receive a resurrection glorified immortal body.  Acts 26:23 confirms that as well.  And after Him, ALL the rest of saved humans from Adam forward will be resurrected when He returns at the Second Advent, which Rev 20:4-5 affirms.

[Cntrysner]

Christ resurrected from the dead in that he descended to defeat death so that we by His faith and power over death we will not be held captive by the penalty of death because of sin.

Christ not only resurrected from dead but he also ascended to the right hand of the Father. Christ is the way and the truth and the life.

Many confuse rising (ascension) with resurrection (from the dead).

There is no judgment for those that are in Christ for God judged Christ righteous and imputes us dead in His righteousness and ascended with Him.

Eph 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 
Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 
Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 

It is finished! For all that believe. 

Time continues because God is long suffering for us.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Cntrysner

[WilliamL]

30 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

As for Rev 7, how can anyone prove that these people got there by "rapture"? All believers go to heaven when they die, and that's not by rapture.  

I'll answer this one question. The others have been answered multiple times.

The "great multitude which no one could number...come out of the great tribulation." The latter phrase tells us that they arrive in heaven in one short space of time. Which will be by means of Christ's Parousia, which takes place "immediately after the tribulation..." Matt. 24:29ff.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure.  Born again is what happens to EVERY believer in the Messiah from Adam on.  iow, ALL the saved from Adam forward will be resurrected/glorified at the same event, which is the Second Advent as Rev 20:4-5 plainly show.

Wrong.  The word "Christ" is Greek, and the Hebrew is "Messiah".  So even OT believers are included here.  There is no way to separate out all of the saved people in humanity.  ALL will be glorified "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

Rev 20:4-5 makes any pretrib resurrection impossible because the Bible SAYS there will a resurrection, not multiple ones.  Only one. And one for the lost.  So that's two, total.

And if you do the math of Rev 20:4-5, you will see that the martyrs (saved) will be resurrected at the Second Advent and that resurrection is called the FIRST resurrection.

There's no way around these facts.

As I said, your facts are not truth. There is simply no possible way for OT saints to have been born again, that is a new spirit inside, under the old Covenant. That was not available until after Jesus rose from the dead. There is no way around this truth. The born again experience only became available after Christ's resurrection.

Do your homework: that word "first" resurrection does not mean first in TIME, but rather first in IMPORTANCE or HONOR. The same Greek word was also translated in another verse as "Chief." 

In other words, you cannot use "first resurrection" to prove there was not another resurrection before that one at the end of the 70th week. In fact, Jesus' resurrection—very much a part of the chief of resurrections for the redeemed—will probably be close to 2000 years before that "first resurrection."