Over-comers and the Second Death

[AdHoc]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:42 PM, WilliamL said:

The prototype Passover took place in Egypt. The removal of the leaven signified that God's people were to reject the doctrines of Egypt = the world. On the later Passover, at the death of Jesus, He took upon Himself the sins of the world (including all false doctrines), thereby removing them from all who believe in him.

After God's people came out of Egypt/the world, they were given new doctrine/leaven from God's own mouth from Mount Sinai. They accepted this doctrine/leaven by making a blood covenant with God the next day, Pentecost. New, pure doctrine/leaven is what is celebrated on Pentecost, both at Sinai and later by the disciples in the upper room, when the Holy Spirit fell. As in, HOLY. DOCTRINE.

I wonder if it makes sense to other readers?

You say at Passover Jesus takes Leaven of all sins and the Leaven of false doctrine. But God says; "away with leaven at Passover"! Then God's people journey to Mount Sinai to receive Leaven - a new doctrine. But in this Covenant are about 620 Laws. Which one is Leaven? Then you call it "pure leaven", but nature shows the very process that leaven employs is corruption. Leaven is added to dough to make it what it isn't. But you have gone one further to say that Leaven is the Law of Sinai.

Wouldn't it be much better if you just quoted a couple of scripture showing leaven to be good doctrine? We've got enough scriptures to doubly establish Leaven as incest - a deadly sin. And by our Lord's mouth Leaven is as the doctrine of the Pharisees.

[WilliamL]

On 12/22/2022 at 2:06 PM, AdHoc said:

You say at Passover Jesus takes Leaven of all sins and the Leaven of false doctrine. But God says; "away with leaven at Passover"!

I said that Jesus took away the false leaven, "removing [it]." Please don't misquote me!

On 12/22/2022 at 2:06 PM, AdHoc said:

nature shows the very process that leaven employs is corruption.

That is your biased opinion. Good leaven actually improves the taste, digestibility and the nutrients (B vitamins) of bread. Bad leaven makes bread taste nasty.

On 12/22/2022 at 2:06 PM, AdHoc said:

We've got enough scriptures to doubly establish Leaven as incest - a deadly sin. And by our Lord's mouth Leaven is as the doctrine of the Pharisees.

And once again, you have read your own presumptions into the scriptures. Oh well, you're entitled to believe what you want to believe, which is your own brand of leaven.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I said that Jesus took away the false leaven, "removing [it]." Please don't misquote me!

That is your biased opinion. Good leaven actually improves the taste, digestibility and the nutrients (B vitamins) of bread. Bad leaven makes bread taste nasty.

And once again, you have read your own presumptions into the scriptures. Oh well, you're entitled to believe what you want to believe, which is your own brand of leaven.

Your reply is read and noted.

[Diaste]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:45 AM, WilliamL said:

I said that Jesus took away the false leaven, "removing [it]." Please don't misquote me!

That is your biased opinion. Good leaven actually improves the taste, digestibility and the nutrients (B vitamins) of bread. Bad leaven makes bread taste nasty.

And once again, you have read your own presumptions into the scriptures. Oh well, you're entitled to believe what you want to believe, which is your own brand of leaven.

I see the discussion continued[even if it is off topic :)] and since I am intrigued by it I decided to look it up. One of the first mentions of leaven in the NT is in Matt 16:

When they crossed to the other side, the disciples forgot to take bread. 6“Watch out!” Jesus told them. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Interesting to note the type and origin of this leaven. It's not simply a general commentary on the efficacy and virtue of all leaven, but is focused on whence the leaven was sourced. 

Clearly bad leaven.

Mark 8

“Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod.”

Another source of leaven to be avoided is introduced. 

Luke 12 

“Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.”

Luke records the true nature of the leaven of the Pharisees.[I suppose that goes for the leaven of Herod and the Sadducees as well. Politicians never change, they do the will of their father always.] I would say here we now know of what the bad leaven consists. 

1 Cor 5

Do you not know that a little leaven works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old leaven, that you may be a new unleavened batch, as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old bread, leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and of truth.

I don't consider Paul's words here to be an indictment of all leaven. [Reasons will be forthcoming] Paul is specifying the nature of the leaven much like Jesus did in the Gospels. Each instance is 'the leaven of', not a general condemnation of all leaven. After all, leavening changes the nature of the substance and is not bad in and of itself; it depends on the source 100% of the time. 

Matt 13

"He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened.”" 

This is very different leaven and in no way equated with the leaven of the Pharisees, Herod, Sadducees, or malice and wickedness. This leaven also changes the nature of the lump but into that which is good, in a direct contrast to the other leaven.

Luke 13

"“To what can I compare the kingdom of God? 21It is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened.”"

Jesus compares the kingdom of God to leaven. Unless one thinks the kingdom of God can also be compared to hypocrisy, malice and wickedness it can only be concluded the source of the leaven is paramount, not all leaven is equal, the nature of the change is based on the nature of the leaven, and that leaven will do the work for which it is designed. 

That is, bad leaven will make the whole lump bad, good leaven will make the lump good. This is why Paul's words are not a ringing slight against leaven but a cautionary tale of which leaven and from what source. Paul implores putting aside this old dangerous leaven for the unleavened nature of purity; that is, the point of beginning unleavened from the old nature where the proper leaven can be introduced.

Paul is not saying the only way is to put aside all leaven and be unleavened throughout existence, but to begin in the state of unleavened from the influence of undesirable qualities and thoughts; to begin anew, before the leavening of hypocrisy and malice creep in, skewing the general perceptions of the individual first, then the whole group. 

Paul's teaching here hearkens back to Jesus' words about the Kingdom of God being like leaven. Paul knew this. 

Hide a bit of the Kingdom of God in your heart, mind and soul and the leaven of the Holy Spirit will fashion your existence into the highest quality bread!