Is the Beast in Daniel 7 the same Empires as Dan 2?

[Vine Abider]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Oh, haven`t you met our dear `retrobyter? ` Talking of long posts. 

Now it was the knights of France and the first emperor of all Europe that had the Leopards on its banner. Plus, there is no other great Federation than the EU for that time slot. 

Glad you could read all of the notes on Islam. If you want any more from that book, `Fires before the Dawn, ` then I can post some. perhaps on the anti-Christ?

 

Thanks, but haven't digested this post yet.  Maybe some others will comment on what's been presented, like @Da Puppers @other one or @WilliamL who have shown some interest.

[abcdef]

On 11/30/2022 at 12:36 PM, Vine Abider said:

Many, if not most, seem to think they are essentially the same empires, but I think there's good reason for saying the one in chapter 7 pertains more to end times than ancient kingdoms,  like is depicted in chapter 2.

Here are some reasons:

1.     It makes little sense that the first three beasts would be ancient kingdoms, since the 4^th beast and the rest of the chapter all pertain to end times (i.e., final judgement, the Son of Man coming in the clouds and the kingdom dominion – chapter 12:9,10, 13, 14)

2.     Verse 7 says – “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which SHALL arise out of the earth.”  If Babylon was one of those beasts (as many suppose the 1^st beast is), it would not say “shall arise” as this would make little sense, since Babylon was in existence when Daniel received this vision.

3.     After the 4^th beast (antichrist) is destroyed, the other three remain as stated in verse 12 – “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.”  Therefore, the other three kingdoms must have existed during the reign of antichrist.*

4.     We see these beasts again in Revelation 13, which is about an end time scenario.  (the beasts in that chapter seemed to have morphed into one beast – “The beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like bear’s feet, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth.”)

 *Popular interpretation of these 4 beasts is that the first is Babylon, the second is the Medo/Persian empire, the third is the Greek/Alexander empire and the fourth is the Roman empire.  But while it’s possible to ascribe these beasts to those ancient empires, it doesn’t negate that it could also apply in latter times as well.

Hi Vine Abider,

I think that the Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 kingdoms are the same.

Where do you think that we are in the statue of Dan. 2?

 

 

[Vine Abider]

5 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Hi Vine Abider,

I think that the Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 kingdoms are the same.

Where do you think that we are in the statue of Dan. 2?

 

 

The toes it would seem.  But I see the beasts in Dan 7 as different - the whole chapter is related towards end of the age times and not to ancient empires.

[abcdef]

3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

The toes it would seem.  But I see the beasts in Dan 7 as different - the whole chapter is related towards end of the age times and not to ancient empires.

Please observe that the iron nation that rules over the children of Israel is continual from the beginning of the iron until the toes end.

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If we are in the time of the toes, then who is the iron nation today?

Who was the iron nation 500 years ago? 1000 years ago?

[Dennis1209]

Naturally, scholars are divided, and there are various views of Nebuchadnezzar’s colossus. The legs are symbolic of the two factions of Islam, Sunni, and Shia, etc. I favor the following view:

But first, scholars also disagree on this, if we could identify with certainty if Tarshish was in fact Great Britain, the matter would be pretty much settled. Based on Jonah, Paul, the ships, and mining of the country’s metals and resources. I contend Tarshish is England, not Spain or elsewhere.

As you correctly identify, the Lion has been symbolic of England for centuries. Therefore, the young lions would represent her offspring, Canada, the U.S., and Australia. If so, the narrative for these countries is not very good. A possible answer to, “where is America in Biblical prophecy?”

Nations that become empires always have predatory beasts as emblems. Nations become empires by eating up other nations. Four great world empires will be stirred up by the powers of Satan to rise up in the Mediterranean area.

Beasts out of the sea usually refer to gentile nations. Nebuchadnezzar’s colossus is representative of gentile world history, as it relates to the center of attention, Israel. I know most are aware of this view, but I want to rehash it again.

The head of gold is Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian empire. Gold is the most valuable and malleable. The value and weight of the materials decrease as history progresses.

The chest and two arms: Here we meet the Medo-Persian empire, known not for its swiftness or skill, but for its brute force, just like a bear. The three ribs depict the three empires already defeated (Egypt, Babylon, Lydia); and the fact that the bear stood “raised up on one side” indicates that the one half of the empire (the Persian half) was stronger and more honorable (higher) than the other half (the Medes). Today the Kurds (in Iraq – Iran) are the descendants of the Medes.

The winged four-headed leopard (v. 6).

This is certainly Greece, led by Alexander the Great, who swiftly conquered the world, defeating the Persians about 331 B.C. But the great general died in 323, and his vast kingdom was divided into four parts (four generals, and thus the four heads). Four of his leading generals each took a part of the kingdom and ruled it as the monarch.

The legs of iron: I believe the “two” legs of iron represent the Western and Eastern legs of the Roman empire. The Eastern leg outlasted the West by a millennium. If that is accurate, then the ten toes mixed with iron and miry clay are partially strong and partly weak. Might represent five nations on one foot as eastern nations and five on the other foot as western nations.

There are so many interpretations, it makes my head spin. 😊

 

 

[abcdef]

9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Naturally, scholars are divided, and there are various views of Nebuchadnezzar’s colossus. The legs are symbolic of the two factions of Islam, Sunni, and Shia, etc. I favor the following view:

But first, scholars also disagree on this, if we could identify with certainty if Tarshish was in fact Great Britain, the matter would be pretty much settled. Based on Jonah, Paul, the ships, and mining of the country’s metals and resources. I contend Tarshish is England, not Spain or elsewhere.

As you correctly identify, the Lion has been symbolic of England for centuries. Therefore, the young lions would represent her offspring, Canada, the U.S., and Australia. If so, the narrative for these countries is not very good. A possible answer to, “where is America in Biblical prophecy?”

Nations that become empires always have predatory beasts as emblems. Nations become empires by eating up other nations. Four great world empires will be stirred up by the powers of Satan to rise up in the Mediterranean area.

Beasts out of the sea usually refer to gentile nations. Nebuchadnezzar’s colossus is representative of gentile world history, as it relates to the center of attention, Israel. I know most are aware of this view, but I want to rehash it again.

The head of gold is Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian empire. Gold is the most valuable and malleable. The value and weight of the materials decrease as history progresses.

The chest and two arms: Here we meet the Medo-Persian empire, known not for its swiftness or skill, but for its brute force, just like a bear. The three ribs depict the three empires already defeated (Egypt, Babylon, Lydia); and the fact that the bear stood “raised up on one side” indicates that the one half of the empire (the Persian half) was stronger and more honorable (higher) than the other half (the Medes). Today the Kurds (in Iraq – Iran) are the descendants of the Medes.

The winged four-headed leopard (v. 6).

This is certainly Greece, led by Alexander the Great, who swiftly conquered the world, defeating the Persians about 331 B.C. But the great general died in 323, and his vast kingdom was divided into four parts (four generals, and thus the four heads). Four of his leading generals each took a part of the kingdom and ruled it as the monarch.

The legs of iron: I believe the “two” legs of iron represent the Western and Eastern legs of the Roman empire. The Eastern leg outlasted the West by a millennium. If that is accurate, then the ten toes mixed with iron and miry clay are partially strong and partly weak. Might represent five nations on one foot as eastern nations and five on the other foot as western nations.

There are so many interpretations, it makes my head spin. 😊

 

 

Maybe you would agree that the iron began in 63 BC-64 BC ish

The iron is continual.

When does the iron change from Rome to some other nation? Where does it show that Rome becomes some other nation?

The iron is continual and stays iron right to the end.

I find it really amazing how want to change the Roman iron into some other entity.

Any nation but Rome.

And if we are in the time of the iron right now, and have been, who is the iron?

Why change what it clearly shows?

Continual Roman iron right up to the end, Rome.

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Yes/No?

[Vine Abider]

3 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Continual Roman iron right up to the end, Rome.

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Yes/No?

Aren't the toes denoting more current nations?

[Vine Abider]

10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

But first, scholars also disagree on this, if we could identify with certainty if Tarshish was in fact Great Britain, the matter would be pretty much settled. Based on Jonah, Paul, the ships, and mining of the country’s metals and resources. I contend Tarshish is England, not Spain or elsewhere.

As you correctly identify, the Lion has been symbolic of England for centuries. Therefore, the young lions would represent her offspring, Canada, the U.S., and Australia. If so, the narrative for these countries is not very good. A possible answer to, “where is America in Biblical prophecy?”

 

 

Thanks for bringing up the young lions of Tarshish!  The same beast appearing in  that might be another possible tie to Great Briton being the lion in Dan 7.  In any case, with the forward looking theme of that chapter, coupled with the same (or at least very similar) beast in Revelation 13, I'm strongly leaning in the direction that the Dan 7 beasts are end of the age.

[abcdef]

48 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Aren't the toes denoting more current nations?

Yes. I would agree, in a general sort of way.

The toes began when the Roman Empire fell and became completely divided. The toes end when Jerusalem is restored.

The power of the iron Roman nation over the children of Israel ended in 1967 when Jerusalem was restored to the complete control of Israel. That means that the toes have ended.

The Roman nation still exists, but its power over the children of Israel has ended.

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To understand if the Dan. 2 statue is describing the same nations as Dan. 7, it should be determined first, what nations the statue of Dan. 2 represents.

Then the passages can be identified as parallel.

To identify Rome as the iron in the statue, leads a the comparison in the details of the 4th beast in Dan. 7 to see if they match or contradict.

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To find this present era in the statue timeline, an evaluation of the Roman iron and its relationship with the children of Israel can be made.

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So I ask you, "Has the continual iron nation of the Dan. 2 statue ended its power over the children of Israel, or are the children of Israel still under the power of the iron nation that began its domination in 63 BC?"

If you say, yes, then who is the iron right now that has power over the children of Israel?

Who was the iron 500 years ago? 200 years ago?

--

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

So I ask you, "Has the continual iron nation of the Dan. 2 statue ended its power over the children of Israel, or are the children of Israel still under the power of the iron nation that began its domination in 63 BC?"

If you say, yes, then who is the iron right now that has power over the children of Israel?

Who was the iron 500 years ago? 200 years ago?

Hmmm, never thought abou that.  Germany at one point.  You might say Great Briton I suppose, because of their control of the region and things leading up to and resulting in the Balfour Agreement.

For who currently has power over Israel - really no one, unless maybe the UN or the US.