The Unpardonable Sin

[missmuffet]

Just now, Mama Etna said:

I probably do not have anything new to add to this.  If you are making yourself miserable over this, then you haven't done it.  Someone who has done it would have a very hard heart that hates God and things of God.  I have known people very hard hearted in this respect that have made me wonder about them.  The Scribes and Pharisees were very hard hearted.

Yes, they were.

[Your closest friendnt]

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

God knows the heart. We know what the Holy Bible says. 

This is a good saying but we need to go a step further and be more specific..as in this specific dialogue we discuss that God knows if anyone has registered the faith of Jesus in his heart or not...and if he does inspite of anything he says or he believes he is in the righteousness of Jesus,,, with the heart man believes and is justified...he does not need the confession of the believer to justify him...he knows the faith is in his heart hidden or not hidden from others....but not hidden from him...Jesus does not need the help of anyone to established the faith in  him in the heart of anyone who believes in him.

This is what Paul explained that your faith in Jesus is the seal of the Holy Spirit. 

The Holy Spirit knows you are in Jesus Christ...

This is so anyone who is in his last time he can believe and be saved, even if he is so weak that he cannot moved or speak.

Even when he is in life support he can hear and he can remember and he can believe even with the ascent of his heart in his own silence he can believe and be saved...Jesus will accept his faith and him because he will die with the faith in him in his heart. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[missmuffet]

34 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is a good saying but we need to go a step further and be more specific..as in this specific dialog we speak that God knows if anyone has registered the faith of Jesus in his heart or not...and if he does inspite of anything he says or he believes he is in the righteousness of Jesus,,, with the heart man believes and is justified...he does not need the confession of the believer to justify him...he knows the faith is in his heart hidden or not hidden from others....but not hidden from him...Jesus does not any witness to help him established the faith in the heart of anyone...

This is what Paul explained that your faith in Jesus is the seal of the Holy Spirit. 

The Holy Spirit knows you are in Jesus Christ...

In your mind what would allow a soul to go to heaven? What would allow a soul to go to Hades?

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

In your mind what would allow a soul to go to heaven? What would allow a soul to go to Hades?

Jesus Christ has the Keys of Death and Hades...He decides, he is the Judge in this matter. 

The above statement it tells us that death and Hades have been defeated by Jesus Christ and they relinquish the authority they had before that happened. In other words they were stripped from the right to gathered the mankind unto themselves by DEFAULT at the time of their death. (with the exception of Abraham and anyonewho was gathered to Abraham ..and anyone else God had given Life Enoch was one of them and this is the reason why he took him alive if not after his death he could not contest about him for his soul with death and Hades, because he wouuld die unredeemed.

After Jesus took the Keys from them the authority to decide for anyone was given to Jesus the Judge of all. . From that time on Jesus Christ began to judged everyone according to his Gospel...  because the Heavenly Inheritance in Jesus Christ was made available to everyone who believes in him.. they way to God in Jesus Christ was opened.  Everyone must hear his Gospel, everyone must be put in the valley of decision and decide for them selves because they will be Judged according to their decision to believe in Jesus Christ or not to believe...It is understood that anyone is not judged at the time when he first refuses to believe only he stands to be judged till the time to change his mind and believe has expires. The judgement of our works for the believers and as the stewards of the Gospel and about what Jesus is asking from anyone is ongoing in this Life and it must because this is part of our growth..

Edited December 5, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

18 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I understand that in the Gospel only those who at the time of their death are found with the denial to believe in Jesus Christ will not have a place in Heaven, even if they believe that they will enter Heaven at the time of their death...because on other merits but without faith in Jesus Christ that he died for our sins and without having their sins forgiven in the eternal fountain of the blood of Jesus Christ.  

They believed that without faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the redemption in his blood for their sins that they can still go to Heaven because they believed in God and had the merits of their good and charitable Life....and they quoted statements as the statement that says "faith is the substance of things hoped for not yet seen" because they believed that they can go to Heaven with only faith in God that they will be rewarded with what they believed. 

The point is that some people they will be surprised to find Jesus as their ultimate Judged and not their religious scholars. 

The truth is that when anyone who has denied faith in Jesus Christ when they lived and found with their unbelief at the moment when they died....ALL of THEM THEY Will BELIEVE IN HIM WHEN THEY SEE HIM IN HIS GLORY IN HEAVEN AND AS THE ONE WHO HOLDS THE KEYS TO THEIR FINAL DESTINATION AND ALL WiLL BELIEVE AND WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD...but that is after their death and the scriptures points to Bless are those who have not seen him and believed. They will perished believing in Jesus Christ...because they believe after their death and had denied him and had died in their denial...

There is not Salvation when someone believes while he is in the Spirit and without his body...only faith in Jesus Christ while someone is still in his body counts. 

 

Those who believe when it's too late to make a decision must be the biggest discouragement to those trying to point them to the Lord, who must also be greatly saddened.

11 hours ago, Mama Etna said:

I probably do not have anything new to add to this.  If you are making yourself miserable over this, then you haven't done it.  Someone who has done it would have a very hard heart that hates God and things of God.  I have known people very hard hearted in this respect that have made me wonder about them.  The Scribes and Pharisees were very hard hearted.

I believe God can change a heart. I don't see it often though.

 

[Starise]

17 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Okay. The way I understand it, the unpardonable sin, if anything, will be committed in the end times.  Here’s my take, but first of all, to repeat what we know, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when, with full knowledge of the presence of His power, for one to deny and teach against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him. (Matthew 12:32).  (There is no sacrifice greater than that which Jesus Christ did. And if an individual "willfully" stands against Him, there is no atonement left for him.) 

Let’s look in Luke.  Notice the “AND” after “forgiven,”  which means a continuing thought:  

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

- Luke 12:10-12 (KJV)

I believe this passage actually tells us when it is possible to commit the unforgiveable sin.  In the (very) latter days, some of us will be delivered up before the antichrist.  The Holy Spirit will come upon them/us at that point (probably as the Holy Spirit did on the first day of Pentecost in Acts 2) to bear witness and testify before people.  I believe this will happen again when the AC is here. It will be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if someone makes the decision at this time to deny and reject the Holy Spirit when He wants to speak through us as a witness to the whole world of the Truth of God’s Word.  

 Interesting take on these verses. Some are putting the timing as only in the time of Jesus while others believe it happens more in the end times. Do you think we are in the end times? I believe it will get worse in the end times.Luke certainly DOES put this happening at this time. Thanks for this.

It's interesting someone said  blasphemy can be a word or an action. This reminded me of a picture posted by a famous artist that showed a cross upside down in a glass of urine. It is just disgusting what these people with depraved minds are capable of. Maybe that wasn't blasphemy, but it's about the most disrespectful thing anyone could do to God.

In the parable of the vinyard, the owner continues to send his workers and they are beaten and killed, including His Son. Same with the marriage supper. The ones first invited decided not to attend. Jesus shows up in person and performed these mircles as Dennis mentioned. The people actually start to believe and what do the pharasees do? They shut it down, denying the power, attributing it to Satan. Looking Jesus right in the face no less.

In order to sin, we have to be aware of it. I never read anything about "accidentally" committing this sin.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Starise said:

 

In the parable of the vinyard, the owner continues to send his workers and they are beaten and killed, including His Son.

It's interesting that you posted this parable which shows that Jesus knew what is going to happen to him and by whom it was going to happen. 

As in the history of the Nation the leaders prosecute and killed Gods prophets, the words Jesus used are "beaten and Killed". Jesus knew that they will do the same thing to him, that they will also beat him before they will killed him. 

He knew that the time of the Son will come...and he knew that he was the Son of God...in other words he was telling them that he was the Son of God and that's what they will do to him...

And Jesus knew the exact time when that is going to happen and walked right in into those sircumstances he did not tried to saved himself...a few days before his death he said: Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I long to gather you like a hen gather her chicks but you killed my prophets one by one and now is my turn to have the same fate like them and here I come...Jesus walked in those sircumstances like a sheep walks in to the hands of those who were going to kill him.

Certainly Jesus knew precisely what they will do to him and he was not in the ignorance of the sheep...but he said that to show that he willingly let everything happen to him and even though he had the powers to overcome them, he did not try to saved his Life [( he had said: if you try to saved your Life you will loose it), (Jesus knew when he had say that, that it applied to himself)] he knew what was going to happen to him and as a result to all of us...that no one will be redeemed and God will loose his only Son and will be childless forever more...

Jesus only had to transform himself as in the mount of configuration and everyone would have been scattered...But that what he did not want....He wanted the Guardians of the Law of Moses to be offended and to try to win the people to their side... Jesus mission was for the leaders to be offended and or to come in the place to believe that Jesus has offended the Law of the Covenant in such a way that the had to do something about it...

They believed that God had put the Onus on them to take care of "the problem they had with Jesus who continues to desecrate the Sabbath...and believing that the plague from God as it was written in the Law will fall on them who tolerate Jesus who in their own minds and correctly according to their Law given to them by the Lord God it was upon anyone who desecrate the sanctity of the Sabbath...and correctly according to the Law Jesus did and did not denied that he healed on the Sabbath but with the excuse that he obeyed the Heavenly Father. 

The Farisees were in the rabbit's whole....in the same whole Jesus found himself in when in the Synagogue on the Sabbath day the Father was asking him to heal the man with the withered hand in violation of the Sabbath's holy rules. And the Pharisees had to obey the holy rules in the Law of God given to them by Moses and killed the violators of the Sabbath. 

The point is that the Pharisees in their ignorance were serving the will of God, Jesus had to be beaten and put to death on this very specific day and time and by the specific people as it just happened so all the prophecies foretold about them will be fulfilled. 

The Pharisees had the burden to win the people over to them...because at that time they people were a MOB, a power that can take matters in their own hands and the leaders and the Pharisees were afraid of the people's power that it may turned against them...

The point is that Jesus had his reasons to do what to do and to speak about them the way he did.  And the thousands of miracles and the hope for more  kept the people Royal around him and when their numbers increased Jesus did something or say something so their numbers decreased. 

His mission was also that he had to make the people distance themselves from him and follow the leaders...Jesus had to died in the specific way it happened and the Leaders in their ignorance were the instruments of the will of God. 

God needed them and without them nothing would have been accomplished..God wanted them to follow the Law and be offended by Jesus who violated the Law and he left evidence behind so the Leaders could prove the violations of the Sabbath who are the people he healed on the Sabbath and he did it infront of witnesses and the healed people were standing there as witnesses against him...This is why Jesus said "pray about your enemies because he also died for them " do not coursed them but pray for them...and he himself prayed and he said "Father do not hold what they said and do to me"

THAT SHOWS THAT THEY ARE FORGIVEN AND ARE INVITED TO BELIEVE AND JOINT THE BELIEVERS IN JESUS. 

JESUS DOES NOT HOLD IT AGAINST THEM, HE INVITES THEM TO BELIEVE IN HIM. 

AND MANY BELIEVED. 

PAUL IS ONE OF THEM. 

6 hours ago, Starise said:

Jesus shows up in person and performed these mircles as Dennis mentioned. The people actually start to believe and what do the pharasees do? They shut it down, denying the power, attributing it to Satan. Looking Jesus right in the face no less.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Retrobyter]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:46 AM, Starise said:

Many years ago I was certain I had committed the unpardonable sin, even as a believer. I had a very frustrated loose tongue moment and I said some things that had mention of the Holy Ghost in them in a not good way.

I looking back, I believe God forgave me for it, but even to this day when things go bad I look back and wonder if some of it is the result of those words. Not necessarily unforgiven, just that it follows me as an event that should not have ever happened.

Since I'm bringing it up I will post scripture references.

Mark 3:22-30

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons." 23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man's house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." 30 He said this because they were saying, "He has an impure spirit."

Matthew 12:31-32

And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 33

My understanding of this text is that since the Holy Spirit IS ABSOLUTELY the working force behind our salvation through Jesus, then blasphemy or denying the Holy Spirit's power effectively cancels out the ability to get saved by that individual's choice.

Nearly as I can tell, what makes the sin unforgivable is the ongoing nature of the sin. If an individual however, has a change of heart later on and stops with those attitudes and thoughts, then they are allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work in their life.

The two key phrases in the above passages are " blasphemes against" and "speaks against" which I interpret to mean any unbelief against the HS or attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan. Another consideration is that since God is triune, then speaking against God Himself would also be speaking against the HS correct? Why does Jesus single out the Holy Spirit? In fact in these passages God is not mentioned at all only Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Thoughts? Can somebody help to unpack this a little better?

I would think probably one of the most horrible realizations would be to realize you committed this sin and can't ever become a child of God, although I have been under the impression that those who commit the sin are so spiritually dead, this realization never occurs to them.

Shalom, Starise.

I believe it's much simpler than that. It's a point of God's POWER to redeem and justify an individual.

The Greek word "blasfeemia" and its verb form "blasfeemeoo" are related to the adjective "blasfeemos":

987 blasfeemeoo (blasphemeo) βλασφημέω (blas-fay-meh'-o). From blasfeemos; to vilify; specially, to speak impiously:
-- (speak) blaspheme(-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.

988 blasfeemia (blasphemia) βλασφημία, ας, ἡ (blas-fay-me'-ah). From blasfeemos; vilification (especially against God):
-- blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

989 blasfeemos (blasphemos) βλάσφημος, ον (blas'-fay-mos). From a derivative of blaptoo and feemee; scurrilious, i.e. Calumnious (against men), or (specially) impious (against God):
-- blasphemer(-mous), railing.

Problem: Who talks this way anymore? "Vilification?" "Vilify?" "Impious?" "Impiously?" "Scurrilious?" "Calumnious?" What one must realize is that these words convey thoughts that are common enough, but these words have become nearly archaic! We say them differently today.

Here are the definitions:

vil·i·fi·ca·tion| ˌvīləfəˈkāSHən | 

noun 

abusively disparaging speech or writing: the widespread vilification of politicians.

This is ALMOST as bad! "Disparaging?" One MAY have studied it to understand the song "Home On the Range," but we still don't use that word often.

We can get a better feel for the meaning through the synonyms in a thesaurus:

vilification

noun

he was singled out for vilification in a sermon: CONDEMNATION, criticism, censure, castigation, denunciation, vituperation, abuse, flak, defamation, denigration, disparagement, obloquy, opprobrium, derogation, slander, revilement, reviling, calumny, calumniation, execration, excoriation, lambasting, upbraiding, a bad press, character assassination, attack, invective, libel, insults, aspersions; informal mudslinging, bad-mouthing, tongue-lashing; British informal stick, verbal, slagging off; archaic contumely; rare animadversion, objurgation. ANTONYMS  praise

These are some words we might use more often. Thus, the words mean to INSULT, SLANDER, BAD-MOUTH, or DENOUNCE God's Holy Spirit.

We can look up the definitions of a couple of others:

scur·ril·ous| ˈskərələs | 

adjective 

making or spreading scandalous claims about someone with the intention of damaging their reputation: a scurrilous attack on his integrity. 

• humorously insulting: a very funny collection of bawdy and scurrilous writings. 

DERIVATIVES

scurrilously | ˈskərələslē | 

adverb 

scurrilousness 

noun 

ORIGIN late 16th century: from French scurrile or Latin scurrilus (from scurra ‘buffoon’) + -ous.

I think the word means more of a "put down" than an actual "slander," but one could do this without overt hatred and animosity! Just a word to say that "God wasn't doing His job" would be this kind of "blasphemy!"

Now, if one were to suggest that God wasn't BIG ENOUGH to "forgive sins," then WHO'S LEFT?!

In this way, I believe that it is rather IRONIC to say that one can't be forgiven for this blasphemy! He or she can't be forgiven for this blasphemy because one doesn't think God is BIG ENOUGH to be the One who IS ABLE TO forgive this blasphemy! Until one can accept God to be the Awesome Creator of all things, he or she doesn't have a God that's BIG ENOUGH to redeem or justify that person from his or her sin!

[Your closest friendnt]

On 12/4/2022 at 4:23 PM, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. Truly I think that the inspired writer was not about to give revelation about the cause of death. But ten times in scripture the death of a man was established by him "giving up the spirit". I was in a discussion with a fellow saint about death. James 2:26 is about dead faith. But he also establishes another truth - that a body that has divested itself of its spirit is also dead.

I have study your post  on and off for a few days...and there are a few interesting issues that are highlighted in your post...

I am quite interested in what it was posted and the way you identify the issues at hand. 

The first one is "that faith without works is dead" this is something that has been known to the whole world from the beginning of the civilization...

The examples are numerous and the following is an example where faith in undertaking to do something it has met a dead end...it is when the project proposed to be build with our works aka our labour was never started or it started and was abandoned...

This is about a project that an individual or a group believed it can been done and required the labour of the group or the individual but no one undertook to began doing the work or it started and did not finish.  

This is the kind of project  that cannot be accomplished in any other way but only by someone doing the labour that's required...

It is not something that we can believe in it and we can go to sleep and it's going to happen without any one doing anything...

The project must be the fruit of our labour, or the fruit of someone's else labour...

** On the other hand there are many other examples where something can be accomplished when we believe that something can take place without involving our works of labour or the labour of anyone else...when faith without the benefit of our works of labour can be fruitful.

We believe that when we water the ground it will get softer and get ready to be cultivated but as we were sleeping the rain came and took care of it, without us doing the work of the watering...

Or we believe the ground can be ready to be cultivated without doing any work, just have to wait for the raining season to come...

Or we believe that the ground will be ready to be cultivated even though we do not have any water to water it, we just have to wait for the rain to come.

We believe when we seed the Garden the seedlings will start to sprout and grow without us doing anything...

Edited December 6, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Vipergts]

I always thought that it was about denial of the Father. The Jews are not going to accept Christ because of who they see as coming, and stick fast to the Father. That is forgivable, but the Holy Spirit is like a stand in for the Father. This is why Christ does not know the plan; His emotions will not alter reality since He does not know what or who to protect, the Father though can lock things up with a thought since He is the planner. So if He, the Father, is going to work without revealing too much to Christ, and His Will might over power a situation, a third party would be needed. Not that God can't, just an act to provide peace of mind to someone worried about the amount of free will. I imagine that it happens enough that denial of one, is denial of both. Just how it appeared to me.