Where are Believers when the Body Dies - immediately and ultimately?

[kwikphilly]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:12 PM, NotMyRealName said:

Every answer you get is an opinion even if they are vehement about it and include lots of bible verses, some not really applicable or out of context.  Here is my opinion for what it's worth.

My bible says over and over and over that the dead are sleeping (until the end time).  I do not know where.  I suppose the saved are somehow with Jesus, but it makes no sense to me that they are in heaven and the condemned in Hell, else what is the judgement day for?  This, for whatever reason, is not what I perceive the popular opinion.  Everyone wants to believe their loved one went directly to heaven.  Some people try to explain the dead are sleeping passages as they pertain only to the body which is resurrected.  The flesh rots away, so I don't understand their argument.  Perhaps God is to take the atoms and molecules and create a new body.  Also, the term "spiritual body" is perhaps the greatest example of an oxymoron I can imagine - a bit like saying night-day, yes-no, positive-negative.  A body is by definition tangible while "spiritual" is by definition non-tangible.  And yes, I know the term "spiritual body" is in some bibles.

Generally I beware those who seem to have all the answers.  There are many, many religious things I don't know or understand.  If St. Paul said now we see through a glass darkly, and he was closer to the Lord than any of us will ever be in the flesh, then who am I to proclaim that I have all the answers?

Blessings NMRN

It's veeeeery nice to have you,I think you've posted my favorite reply as of yet- honest,humble and genuine,how refreshing it is❤️

There are very few I could enjoy a discussion with on this particular subject but it would certainly be a pleasure to " speculate" and share some " opinions" with reference to applicable Scriptures with you.Thanks for your contribution!

Look forward to hearing more from you- I can do without the rampant spirit of pride and get together with some others like us who see dimly,darkly,like through a glass- lol. I know one thing for certain & that is when humility is present Holy Spirit Can Move Like a Mighty Rushing Wind and REVEAL- Glory to God !

With love in Christ, Kwik

 

[Vine Abider]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:38 AM, JohnD said:

"Endless diatribe?" Okay, I'll make it simple for you.

When the body dies:

• the spirit departs and goes to be with the Lord if you are a Christian, or it goes to Sheol 
• the soul which you are so bewildered / concerned about is the buffer between the two realities of flesh and spirit. It is that which ceases to exist when we die. 
• the flesh ceases to function (appearing to sleep) and decays into the base elements

Since you are overly concerned about the length of the entries here, I'll leave it at that for now.

I, for one, appreciate that brief summary!

[Vine Abider]

One thing I think I picked up from this discussion (or was it on another thread?) -->  when Jesus died He freed the righteous in Hades.  Is it correct thinking then, that when He resurrected those souls were free to follow Him to heaven and these were the ones that appeared to the living in Jerusalem?  (Matt 27:53)

After His resurrection, the righteous go directly to Him, while unrighteous (unsaved) go to a time of waiting in Sheol.  Is this good thinking?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:07 PM, Bluedragon said:

We agree....however, the debate is driven by those who misread the Bible and defend the concept that soul and body sleeps until the second coming .....That's not what is said ....

This is not what we have inherited from the scriptures at hand...

In Genesis it was made clear the body of man is returning back to earth that no one can have the body of man. 

Under normal circumstances it will buried and decay..

Under other sircumstances it will be burned...or it will be consumed by the wild beast of the earth and or the sea.

When man dies the moment the physical man stops factioning for whatever reason the soul of man is taken by the one who decieved them. He took the fallen humankind. There was only the fallen humankind..

Adam was their Father...

The Devil took the soul of man and left the body to his relatives...if that was possible...

God did not contest for the soul of man with the Devil or the God of the dead Hades...

And did not contest for the body of dead man from his relatives where applicable.

This is what we call the DEFAULT Inheritance for mankind

 There was an exception when God took someone under special sircumstances to Heaven but that was made possible because he took Enoch before he died..

All the people were taken by Hades at the time of their death because they were mark with the death of Adam..

At their death the Devil can only take the soul of man...

This is what Jesus came to do with his death on the Cross to take back from the Devil what he took at the time of the death of man...his soul.

Jesus shed his blood to redeemed our souls from the Devil...

Or better though for us who live after the Cross and died as believers in Jesus Christ to stop the Devil for wanting to put his hand on our souls...

He cannot do that because the hand of Jesus is on our soul.

When we say Jesus has the Keys of Death and Hades...

The Death and Hades lost the right to put their hands and take anyone who died in the Death of Adam...because this Death is the same death that came upon Adam...this death had nothing to do with the physical death because as we can see Adam continued to live till the time of his physical death.  

Jesus paid the price and redeemed from the Devil what he took at the time of man's physical death "his soul".

×××about Abraham we need to address what God did for Abraham and his chosen seed and what he did when he gave them the Law and the Sinai Covenant in a different chapter because what he did it is extraordinary and it is not easily understood. 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[TreeFivew]

I believe in Sheol.  It's divided into the two parts, consisting of the saved and unsaved, in my opinion.

[Sower]

This too shall pass, and I trust the Lord knows what He's doing.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing"

I'll be home, wherever God has made ready...

[Vine Abider]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:00 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

Good questions there. Here are my two paragraphs with scriptures. 

We, the Body of Christ who eagerly await the Lord`s return will one day be changed and caught up to meet the Lord together in the air. We then go to the third heaven, (angelic realm) where we take part in the coronation of the Lord as the visible supreme ruler with His Body who are also Kingpriests around His own throne.

Heb. 9: 28 eagerly wait. 

1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18 caught up. 

Rev. 3: 21 Lord`s own throne.  Rev. 4: 2 & Ps. 2: 6, throne, authority SET in heaven.

Acts 3: 20 & 21 restoration of rulership starts in the highest. There has been no visible ruler in the angelic realm since Lucifer was cast out. The Lord only is worthy to visibly rule there.

The 24 elders are representative of the Body of Christ. (Rev. 4: 4)

Presently the Lord is on the Father`s throne, (authority) but when His Body has been brought to maturity in Him then it will be time for Him to come for us and take us to His own throne which the Father will set up in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

Heb. 1: 3,  Ps. 110: 1 Christ at the right hand of the Father on the Father`s throne.

Eph. 4: 13 the Body is being brought to maturity, (perfect man) of Christ`s character, (Son of God) and His purposes. 

Ps. 2: 6,  Rev. 4: 2 the Father will set up the Son`s own throne/authority in the third heaven, the highest. (Eph. 1: 22 all things under His feet.)

The Bema seat, for rewards done in the power of the Holy Spirit, will be when we first go to heaven. Notice the 24 elders already are crowned, thus they received them before this grand celebration of the Worthy One. (Rev. 4: 4)

Marilyn.

Well hello Marilyn . . . finally got some time freed-up to respond!  This looks good to me and is inline with my thinking too.  In Christ our God-delegated authority is fully restored.  Do you have thoughts on who the elders are?  I've heard they are the 12 apostles + 12 patriarchs. 

[Vine Abider]

On 12/13/2022 at 10:32 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

I missed your second question. Yes, the NJ has the 12 apostles as foundations. They were promised that position. (Matt. 19: 28,  Rev. 21: 14) That was shown to Abraham as the `stars of the heavens,`  (universal heavens) So the 12 disciples and the OT saints will be there in the NJ. (Heb. 11: 16) And that is a prominent position in the universal heavens. 

Abraham was also told that his descendants would be as the `sand of the sea.`  Meaning, the predominant position on the new earth.

Then there is the highest ruling position in the third heaven on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Throne, means authority and power, and the Lord`s seat of rulership is far above all. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21) He does have a `throne` in the NJ, meaning that His rulership is also there as on the earth. However, the Lord`s seat of power and authority is in the highest. 

The Lord`s seat of rulership is not below the angels, or where Lucifer had his throne, or even where Satan rules from now. No, the Lord`s seat of authority, where He rules from over all realms in God`s great kingdom is in the highest, the third heaven with His Body. 

Yes, God desires for man to be on the new earth, but God has had greater plans than that - for man to be ruling in the universal realm and then in the third heaven. Thus, all realms have rulership under Christ. This is God`s great eternal purpose in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10,  3: 11)

Marilyn.

BTW if you would like more detail I have written a blog series on `God`s Eternal Purposes.`  You will find it in `Marilyn`s Messages,` page 11. 

And I also agree with this post . . . however, one question: When you say man will be "ruling from the 3rd heavens," how does this work with His people living in the NJ on earth? I've heard some say that the NJ, since it comes down out of heaven will actually be heaven on earth.  In other words, where God is, heaven is.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Well hello Marilyn . . . finally got some time freed-up to respond!  This looks good to me and is inline with my thinking too.  In Christ our God-delegated authority is fully restored.  Do you have thoughts on who the elders are?  I've heard they are the 12 apostles + 12 patriarchs. 

Thank you VA,

I appreciate you taking the time to go through my comments. Glad we can agree. 

The elders are representative of the Body of Christ. Notice they  are -

1. Out of every tribe, tongue, people, nation etc. And that is more than 24. (Rev. 5; 9)

2. They have white robes - holy priests. (Rev. 4: 4)

3. They have crowns - rulers. (Rev. 4: 4)

4. They are around the throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

5. They are kingpriests. (Rev. 1: 6)

 

The Lord Jesus Christ is the King (High) priest. Thus, His body is also of that order, (Heb.  6: 20) kingpriests. (Rev. 1: 6) That is the highest ruling authority.

 

Note that the apostles are kings in the NJ and the 144,000 are the priests. Separate offices there in the lower heavens. (Rev. 21: 14,  17,    Rev. 7: 4,   14: 1 - 5)

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

And I also agree with this post . . . however, one question: When you say man will be "ruling from the 3rd heavens," how does this work with His people living in the NJ on earth? I've heard some say that the NJ, since it comes down out of heaven will actually be heaven on earth.  In other words, where God is, heaven is.

Very good question as you see the error of people thinking they are `female,` a bride, (no marriages in heaven) has led to the wrong inheritance. 

The NJ is promised to the OT saints. (Heb. 11: 16) It is the rulership under the Lord in the lower heavens. It will be over the earth as the whole world walks in its light. Thus, it needs to be above the world for that to occur. (Rev. 21: 24) 

It will be the connecting (illustration of AS a bride - marriage, union and connection) of the spiritual and the physical realms. 

Scripture never says it comes to the earth. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the -

1. Stars of heaven - a prominent position in the lower heavens. (not the predominant though, for that is for the Body of Christ in the third heaven.)

2. Sand of the sea-shore - the predominant position on the earth, (over the nations).

God is restoring rulership in every realm starting with the highest, and that is us as we hold fast to the Head and wait eagerly for Him. (Col. 2: 19,  Heb. 9: 28)

Quite a bit to work through so take your time.

Marilyn.