The Efficacy of Water Baptism

[other one]

You know...  I'm 77 years old and have seen many people come to Christ over the years.  I have never seen a person accept Jesus as their Lord that did not have a deep desire to be baptized.   I think we should be baptized because Jesus told us to and did so as an example.  Does it matter about all this why's and wherefores that tend to divide us.

Does Baptism save a person...   I personally don't think so.

Will a saved person be baptized...   Absolutely.   And I would say that if a person has accepted Jesus as Lord and has a chance to be baptized and chooses not to, I would question their salvation decisions.

[Jayne]

20 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

You all are arguing over something silly, and your both right, and wrong.

Ita true that baptism is not part of levitical law.

But it was practiced culturally at the time. What John the Baptist was doing wasn't really "new"

You are precisely right.

Getting "wet" for ceremonial cleanliness/purity was well known by Jews of the Old Testament.

The tvilah and mikvah were well known.  Baptism would not have come as a surprise to Jews.

[The_Patriot21]

15 minutes ago, Jayne said:

You are precisely right.

Getting "wet" for ceremonial cleanliness/purity was well known by Jews of the Old Testament.

The tvilah and mikvah were well known.  Baptism would not have come as a surprise to Jews.

The meaning behind baptism was certainly new, but not the act itself 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Neighbor said:

"The Efficacy of Water Baptism"

Starting  with a definition of efficacy, if the one below is acceptable, then  I end up wondering what was the need or desired effect that Yeshua required from John The Baptist for  himself?

efficacy /ĕf′ĭ-kə-sē/

noun

1. Power or capacity to produce a desired effect; effectiveness. 
2. Power to produce effects; operation or energy of an agent or force; production of the effect intended. 
   "the efficacy of medicine in counteracting disease; the efficacy of prayer."
   Similar: efficacy
3. Ability to produce a desired amount of a desired effect. 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition 

 

Jesus came to be baptized by John did he not? Matthew 3:13-14. It is recorded that he said it is fitting for him to be so baptized.  

So if it was fitting, and efficacy is  for a desired effective change, what change did Jesus desire or need for himself that he insisted on John's water baptism for repentance for himself?

 

p.s. BTW the thread is a good one, one for all of little or much understanding. May many gain useful insight for themselves that leads to further reading the word of God. Reading with prayer, thinking, and yes much questioning. For questions lead to more prayer and reading  perhaps with gaining  insight through the Holy Spirit's guidance.

Shalom, Neighbor.

To answer your question, we only need to read the words of Yeeshuwa` when convincing Yochanan to baptize Him:

Matthew 3:13-17 (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying,

"I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"

15 And Jesus answering said unto him,

"Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying,

"This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED."

He first had to present Himself for the ritual cleansing before the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of G0d) could anoint Him for service as King and Priest and Prophet. And having done so, His Father was ""WELL PLEASED." Thus, He became the Anointed One, the Maashiyach, the Christos.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, other one said:

You know...  I'm 77 years old and have seen many people come to Christ over the years.  I have never seen a person accept Jesus as their Lord that did not have a deep desire to be baptized.   I think we should be baptized because Jesus told us to and did so as an example.  Does it matter about all this why's and wherefores that tend to divide us.

Does Baptism save a person...   I personally don't think so.

Will a saved person be baptized...   Absolutely.   And I would say that if a person has accepted Jesus as Lord and has a chance to be baptized and chooses not to, I would question their salvation decisions.

Shalom, other one.

Yes, and a prime example of one who could not be baptized but was still justified by God was the thief on the cross.

[Neighbor]

14 hours ago, other one said:

I have never seen a person accept Jesus as their Lord that did not have a deep desire to be baptized. 

Hmmm, Actually I have seen and experienced many over the years of being involved in Baptism ( Water Baptism) occasions.

 

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Jayne said:

You are precisely right.

Getting "wet" for ceremonial cleanliness/purity was well known by Jews of the Old Testament.

The tvilah and mikvah were well known.  Baptism would not have come as a surprise to Jews.

Shalom, Jayne.

Something I was thinking about that's a little off-topic but is related because it was the Immerser's message:

Mark 1:1-15 (KJV)]

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God (the Good News from Yeeshua` the Anointed One, God's Son); 2 As it is written in the prophets,

"Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."

[Malachi 3:1 (KJV)

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come,saith the LORD of hosts.]

3 "The voice of one crying in the wilderness,

"'Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.'" (Isaiah 40:3)

[Isaiah 40:3-5 (KJV)

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness,

"Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it]."]

4 John DID baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Greek: κηρύσσων βάπτισμα μετανοίας εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν = keerussoon baptisma metanoias eis afesin hamartioon = "he-was-heralding an-immersion of-repentance into a-remission/forgiveness/pardon of-sins"). 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying,

"There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying],

"Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching (heralding) the gospel (Good News) of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel!"

What "good news" were they talking about? It was certainly NOT about "the death, burial, and resurrection of the Anointed One!" Most of the people were just learning that He was the Messiah! And, the Messiah had to die???!! And then, He would be raised to life? No, this was MUCH too early in His offer of the Kingdom to be all that!

No, this "good news" was that which was proclaimed by Ysha`yaahuw (Isaiah) in ...

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, 'Thy God reigneth!'"

As in the days of David the King, who recognized that he was a mere figurehead for the TRUE King, YHWH God, Yeeshuwa` would be the same kind of King, reigning on behalf of His Father! 

THIS is what Yochanan and then Yeeshuwa` were heralding at the beginning!

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

Hmmm, Actually I have seen and experienced many over the years of being involved in Baptism ( Water Baptism) occasions.

Shalom, Neighbor.

Quite right! Some have had a fear of water that kept them from the baptismal pool.

Some have been in wheelchairs where it was impractical to be baptized (although I've also witnessed some of them being CARRIED by their friends down into the pool and then being CARRIED out and set into their wheelchairs again where they were aided in drying off and redressing in the changing room). This had to be well thought through, but I've seen it done.

Some were immature and, although they were young and sober enough to accept God's provision for their justification, they didn't yet understand the importance of baptism. It just had to be delayed until they were ready.

Some, like the dying thief, had no time or opportunity before they died. Baptism is a PICTURE of what the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) did for them in reality. The picture is desired, but is not required for one's justification by God.

To support the idea of a "picture," recall Romans 6:

Romans 6:2-7 (KJV)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that LIKE as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This also shows that baptizoo means "I immerse." So, being baptized doesn't mean to sprinkle a little water on a person, for one isn't BURIED by sprinkling a little dirt on a body! Nor is pouring a cup or a pint of dirt on a body! One must be BURIED in the dirt! Thus, one must be IMMERSED in water, as a likeness of His death, who was totally entombed in the garden tomb.

Edited April 24, 2024 by Retrobyter
to add a passage for support of a point

[Cntrysner]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

To support the idea of a "picture," recall Romans 6:

Romans 6:2-7 (KJV)

Hello Retrobyter,

I enjoy reading your post.

How does Romans 6:2-7 support water baptism is a picture of our baptism into Christ? Clearly Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism which has nothing to do with water immersion but is an operation of God by the Spirit not a operation of man.

Col_2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Co_12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Edited April 24, 2024 by Cntrysner

[other one]

7 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hmmm, Actually I have seen and experienced many over the years of being involved in Baptism ( Water Baptism) occasions.

 

Hummm,  not sure what you mean by that.